Mass RMV / DOT Security Policy

[Toast]

So, walking into the RMV service center in South Yarmouth yesterday, I came across this sign:



The RMV website shows this sign for all the locations that I bothered to check. Effectively the same signs are posted at a number of federal locations (the Social Security office in Attleboro, for one), but in those cases there are actually laws saying that you cannot carry in those locations.

Two questions.

1. When did this start?
2. How is a state department able to create its own restricted zones when the state legislature hasn't seen fit to do so?

Makes one wonder if this is enforceable.

 

[EMTDAD]

when I took my kid to the Attleboro RMV for his permit a couple of years ago, there was an armed security guard.

I had my knives in my pocket..

 

[Dennis in MA]

Armed security started in Covid. F the RMV. If I DOGE'd the Commonwealth, it would be the first place to start. I'd go into each office with a huge whip a la Jesus de Nazarath. F'ing useless, disgruntled, soft-working piles of crap.

I was there. . . . . May of Covid. The clerk - after I was ESCORTED IN BY AN ARMED GUARD SO I DIDN'T SOMEHOW GURILLA COVID THEM - lost her mind when Ih had the audacity to APPROACH THE COUNTER. F them.

I don't even go anymore. I'll go to AAA. In fact, F the RMV completely. Mail order, online, AAA. They can all get fired and go pound sand.

I shoudl really let loose and tell you how I really feel.

Armed f'ing guards at the RMV. Please. What total a-holes.

 

[Palladin]

Armed security started in Covid. F the RMV. If I DOGE'd the Commonwealth, it would be the first place to start. I'd go into each office with a huge whip a la Jesus de Nazarath. F'ing useless, disgruntled, soft-working piles of crap.

I was there. . . . . May of Covid. The clerk - after I was ESCORTED IN BY AN ARMED GUARD SO I DIDN'T SOMEHOW GURILLA COVID THEM - lost her mind when Ih had the audacity to APPROACH THE COUNTER. F them.

I don't even go anymore. I'll go to AAA. In fact, F the RMV completely. Mail order, online, AAA. They can all get fired and go pound sand.

I shoudl really let loose and tell you how I really feel.

Armed f'ing guards at the RMV. Please. What total a-holes.

next would be The Lottery......more people doing nothing than anywhere I've ever seen

 

[Cphobes]

When I was a teenager in Quincy we were walking into a sub shop and a armed registry cop was leaving. My dad could barely contain his glare at an armed registry cop. Then to think they got folded into the State Police several years later. I think Dad said something along the lines of keystone cops but not as polite as that.

 

[Toast]

Sure, there were armed Registry cops at the Boston office back in the 70s when I got my license. But that's not really my question. I'm wondering what authority the DOT has to declare their areas to be gun free.

 

[Toast]

When I was a teenager in Quincy we were walking into a sub shop and a armed registry cop was leaving. My dad could barely contain his glare at an armed registry cop. Then to think they got folded into the State Police several years later. I think Dad said something along the lines of keystone cops but not as polite as that.

My uncle was a Statie back when it meant something. He was apoplectic when the RMV and MDC cops got folded into them.

 

[EMTDAD]

Sure, there were armed Registry cops at the Boston office back in the 70s when I got my license. But that's not really my question. I'm wondering what authority the DOT has to declare their areas to be gun free.

probably as much authority as any other business or property in MA.

 

[WJ406]

I’m willing to bet that the MassDOT policy itself has no legal teeth but the same can’t be said for the applicable MGL that covers “prohibited areas”.

MGL Ch. 269 s. 10(k)

(k)​

(1)​

Whoever possesses a firearm, loaded or unloaded, as defined in section 121 of chapter 140, in a prohibited area, and knows or reasonably should know such location is a prohibited area, shall be punished by a fine of not more than $1,000 or by imprisonment in the house of correction for not more than 2 ½ years, or both such fine and imprisonment.

(2)​

For the purposes of this subsection, “prohibited area” shall mean any of the following locations:

• (i) a place owned, leased, or under the control of state, county or municipal government and used for the purpose of government administration, judicial or court administrative proceedings, or correctional services, including in or upon any part of the buildings, grounds, or parking areas thereof; provided, however, that a “prohibited area” shall not include any state-owned public land available to the public for hunting and provided further that a municipality may vote pursuant to section 4 of chapter 4 to exclude its administrative buildings from being a “prohibited area

 

[Palladin]

The registr

When I was a teenager in Quincy we were walking into a sub shop and a armed registry cop was leaving. My dad could barely contain his glare at an armed registry cop. Then to think they got folded into the State Police several years later. I think Dad said something along the lines of keystone cops but not as polite as that.

The Registry, the Capital Police & the MDC police all got absorbed....at the time the Staties were bullshit.

 

[bejay]

My uncle was a Statie back when it meant something. He was apoplectic when the RMV and MDC cops got folded into them.

MDC cops…brings back many memories of Nahant beach at 11:00 PM, when would try to clear out the parking lot.

 

[Sparkey]

I don’t know how they get away with it I work in a state building that requires ID to get in and has security metal detectors X ray etc.
A lot of people challenge the id thing for a public building. I don’t know how it pans out as don’t pay much attention but I do know no ID they won’t let you in. They will hold knives and pepper spray for you not firearms as no way to secure them.
This building doesn’t have a RMV the other building I take care of that does have a RMV does have armed guards but no security checkpoint so you could be armed or have a knife nobody would say anything.

 

[Lennypeters]

My uncle was a Statie back when it meant something. He was apoplectic when the RMV and MDC cops got folded into them.

One of the things I remember is them being called TWAT's - troopers without academy training.

 

[Abe Froman]

I’m willing to bet that the MassDOT policy itself has no legal teeth but the same can’t be said for the applicable MGL that covers “prohibited areas”.

MGL Ch. 269 s. 10(k)

Well the sign doesn't define the prohibition as a 'prohibited area', it just says these items are prohibited by department policy. Without a public copy of that policy, there would be no way for one to know exactly what is prohibited exactly where. For all you know, the policy says you can't have those items in areas where employees have access but not prohibited in general public areas. So the sign, on its face, is useless.

 

[WJ406]

Well the sign doesn't define the prohibition as a 'prohibited area', it just says these items are prohibited by department policy. Without a public copy of that policy, there would be no way for one to know exactly what is prohibited exactly where. For all you know, the policy says you can't have those items in areas where employees have access but not prohibited in general public areas. So the sign, on its face, is useless.

Nowhere in Ch 269 s 10 does it say that the area needs to have a posted sign alerting people to the “prohibited area” status. Also the MGL has nothing to do with the MassDOT policy.

I think we can all agree that an RMV office is a “prohibited area” under this section. It’s a place under the control of the state government used for the purposes of government administration.

With that being said, if there’s no metal detectors concealed means concealed.

 

[Abe Froman]

Nowhere in Ch 269 s 10 does it say that the area needs to have a posted sign alerting people to the “prohibited area” status. Also the MGL has nothing to do with the MassDOT policy.

True, but without some type of advanced notification the public would otherwise have no way of knowing a certain area is a prohibited area. You can't define an area as a prohibited area once a reasonable person without prior knowledge has already breached it. Otherwise the Commonwealth could just declare every location a prohibited location whenever it was convenient to support a gun charge.

This sounds like the Star Trek 'Justice' episode where the visited planet had 'punishment zones' that were randomly placed around the planet. The sentence for committing any crime in the punishment zone was death, but no one knew where the zones were or for how long they would be in one place. So no one committed any crimes because you could never tell if you were in a zone or not. #geeklore

 

[MickeyD’s]

My uncle was a Statie back when it meant something. He was apoplectic when the RMV and MDC cops got folded into them.

When was that ?

They’ve always been jack booted thugs

 

[WJ406]

True, but without some type of advanced notification the public would otherwise have no way of knowing a certain area is a prohibited area. You can't define an area as a prohibited area once a reasonable person without prior knowledge has already breached it. Otherwise the Commonwealth could just declare every location a prohibited location whenever it was convenient to support a gun charge.

This sounds like the Star Trek 'Justice' episode where the visited planet had 'punishment zones' that were randomly placed around the planet. The sentence for committing any crime in the punishment zone was death, but no one knew where the zones were or for how long they would be in one place. So no one committed any crimes because you could never tell if you were in a zone or not. #geeklore

Trust me, I agree. But nothing in the MGL supports this.

I doubt anyone has been charged with violating this yet and I doubt anyone will be charged except in extreme circumstances. Like when a felon is trying to go to Boston City Hall with a firearm and gets stopped at the metal detectors. 269/10 will just be an add-on charge to everything else he gets charged with.

But once again, this is what Mass wants: To create fear among legal gun owners to change our behavior but never actually prosecute anyone (i.e. Healy’s 2016 AWB “opinion”).

 

[Dennis in MA]

next would be The Lottery......more people doing nothing than anywhere I've ever seen

At least they are a revenue generator.

Did you know the average mASSwhole adult spends over $1K on lotto a year. National average is 300-ish. They outpace the NEXT state by over $400.

I know that I do'nt play. Neither do
Wife
Son
2 Daughters
SIL

That's 6 of us with gooseeggs. Some a-hole is spending $5K a year on the lottery. Frickin stupid massachoozians.

Sadly, things were better when the mob ran numbers. A lot less stupid people and it was more efficient.

My uncle was a Statie back when it meant something. He was apoplectic when the RMV and MDC cops got folded into them.

Oh please. RMV Cops had the same shitty "I'm better than you" attitude. If the Staties had trouble with it, tough. They deserved each other.

 

[Toast]

I’m willing to bet that the MassDOT policy itself has no legal teeth but the same can’t be said for the applicable MGL that covers “prohibited areas”.

MGL Ch. 269 s. 10(k)

Could be, but I doubt it. The policy not only prohibits firearms, but also includes knives, pepper spray, and tasers, none of which would be covered under 269 10(k).

 

[WJ406]

Could be, but I doubt it. The policy not only prohibits firearms, but also includes knives, pepper spray, and tasers, none of which would be covered under 269 10(k).

Yes, the MassDOT policy covers numerous other things beyond firearms. Other than trespassing (if you refuse to leave after being detected with one of these items), what would the legal penalty be for violating this policy?

If there’s no applicable CMR or MGL, I’m not too worried about it.

 

[Toast]

Yes, the MassDOT policy covers numerous other things beyond firearms. Other than trespassing (if you refuse to leave after being detected with one of these items), what would the legal penalty be for violating this policy?

If there’s no applicable CMR or MGL, I’m not too worried about it.

Thus the final sentence in the original post: "Make one wonder if this is enforceable."

 

[Rob Boudrie]

True, but without some type of advanced notification the public would otherwise have no way of knowing a certain area is a prohibited area. You can't define an area as a prohibited area once a reasonable person without prior knowledge has already breached it. Otherwise the Commonwealth could just declare every location a prohibited location whenever it was convenient to support a gun charge.

Yes, the government can - but it would have to go through the legislative process which is considered public notice.

If there’s no applicable CMR or MGL, I’m not too worried about it.

The applicable MGL has already been posted. Of course, you are free to argue that issuance of drivers licenses and vehicle ritles/registration is a guvernment administrative function.

Sadly, things were better when the mob ran numbers. A lot less stupid people and it was more efficient.

Three advantages of the mob system:
- Payout percentage (I think)
- Tax on winnings.
- No suits by people trying to claim they were in a betting pool with you

Thus the final sentence in the original post: "Make one wonder if this is enforceable."

In order of descending liklihood:

1. Please leave, ending the issue on the spot
2. Arrest or citation resolved by CWOF
3. Trial and conviction
4. Trial and no convition, but not setting precdent the law does not apply
5. Trial and precedent nullifying the law

If there’s no applicable CMR or MGL, I’m not too worried about it.

Agreed.
Worry.

 

[Buck F]

I have had occasion to go to the Attleboro & Milford RMVs a few times in the past 5 or so years, the last time was over the Summer. Always had armed guards outside.

We issue plates in our office, I wonder if I should put a sign up...?

 

[EMTDAD]

With the way the RMV operates, they need armed guards to protect the idiot clerks from (often, rightfully so) pissed off patrons.

 

[Toast]

The applicable MGL has already been posted.

No, not with respect to a majority of the other things on that list, which would seem to be a fair indicator that the particular MGL is not the issue in play..

 

[Rob Boudrie]

No, not with respect to a majority of the other things on that list, which would seem to be a fair indicator that the particular MGL is not the issue in play..

I saw nothing in the other posts that even sugges that the RMV was not a government administrative function. What did I miss?

 

[drgrant]

Sure, there were armed Registry cops at the Boston office back in the 70s when I got my license. But that's not really my question. I'm wondering what authority the DOT has to declare their areas to be gun free.

The new shit law basically says that gov can ban carry in gov buildings. Wether and how its binding is another story.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

The new shit law basically says that gov can ban carry in gov buildings. Wether and how its binding is another story.

Close. It states that the gove DOES (not can) ban carry in government buildings used for "administration of government". It does it; nost states the government can do it.

It is unclear on what "administration" is. Is providing a service "administration?". Clearly town halls are "administration". What about the provision of services like community centers library centers, transfer stations & recycling centers, and salt domes?

 

[Toast]

I saw nothing in the other posts that even sugges that the RMV was not a government administrative function. What did I miss?

This sign also prohibits knives, pepper spray, and Tasers, none of which are mentioned in 269 10(k). Past insinuating that 269 10(k) is not the basis for the prohibition, it doesn't explain how they could block those as well.