New Offerings from CMP

[jct61765]

AR’s are not full auto, but Yeah, I think I have a pretty good grasp on how one would be converted,
But by all means feel free to enlighten me.

The lower has really never changed.
Both are made on the same line. A full auto takes approximately 3 more minutes.

 

[jct61765]

I could get all technical here and point out that AR does not = AR15 or M16. The AR18 was select fire. And like the AR15, the semi version, the AR180, isn't that big a deal to convert. 10 minutes looking at the plans and almost anyone could convert either with noting but hand tools.

What type of engineer are you??

 

[jct61765]

Lots of folks on nes (including me) said who the hell would want a beat to snot colt gvt 1911........I still don't want one of those beat to shit pistols.......but there sure is a wait list to get one from cmp.

I'm not against selling the uppers. You were very vocal about it. I feel the uppers wouldn't sell, but I'm not against them. What @42! is talking about is selling the whole gun.

 

[BigGreen2000]

Judging by the tool marks on the receiver heel, I’m “guessing” it’s a forged receiver that was machined to final form (I.E. not cast). Just a guess.

 

[jct61765]

Judging by the tool marks on the receiver heel, I’m “guessing” it’s a forged receiver that was machined to final form (I.E. not cast). Just a guess.

You're the first one to say that.

 

[BigGreen2000]

And I guess I’ll be the last one to say it also!

 

[drgrant]

Sure welding and machining, but trying to think of a more production way of doing it.
Could they machine, or stamp out the pivot hole to a larger rectangle and then a press fit plug. Exact location would be less important than size, so a punch could be used instead of milling.
That would prevent someone just drilling a hole as the plug would fail. Don't need to make conversion impossible, just cross the line away from redily convertable. And change out the fire control.
At that point it wouldn't be any easier to make full auto than any other AR platform.

Of course non of this matters with a change by congress

It would be way cheaper for CMP to just replace the lower. Like exponentially. An Anderson is 50 bucks. CMP could get a run done with their own rollmarks etc.

 

[Cap'n Mike]

It would be way cheaper for CMP to just replace the lower. Like exponentially. An Anderson is 50 bucks. CMP could get a run done with their own rollmarks etc.

Replace the lower or even just sell parts kits.

These Malaysian parts kits, in poor condition, are almost a grand, and that’s without a barrel.

Colt M16A1 Parts Kit

Original Colt

whatacountry.com

They could get lowers from H&R and sell them for the same as a Garand.

 

[Cap'n Mike]

I built this M16A1 Clone with all surplus parts except the lower.

 

[whacko]

I'm not against selling the uppers. You were very vocal about it. I feel the uppers wouldn't sell, but I'm not against them. What @42! is talking about is selling the whole gun.

I'm not against selling the uppers......I'm saying I think alot of people will be surprised at how many people will actually buy a beat to snot army surplus m16 upper......I just can't for the life of me figure out why.

 

[drgrant]

I'm not against selling the uppers......I'm saying I think alot of people will be surprised at how many people will actually buy a beat to snot army surplus m16 upper......I just can't for the life of me figure out why.

I think it would make more sense for CMP to be selling whole guns even if they involve a new lower.

 

[42!]

It would be way cheaper for CMP to just replace the lower. Like exponentially. An Anderson is 50 bucks. CMP could get a run done with their own rollmarks etc.

Under the current conditions you are absolutely right. But I think its debatable if my suggested process, at large scale, wouldn't be cheaper. Once a press is set up to punch the hole it would be quick and pennies per receiver. The punch itself would be a comparatively small unit, and fine accuracy isn't necessary. The plug would be cheap to mass produce, and a simple press to press them in. It's not a major stress point so you're really just plugging the hole to keep the dust out. Heck now that I think about it, punch the hole and plug it with plastic.

As I've said, the real stumbling block is the laws, they would need to be changed

 

[42!]

What type of engineer are you??

Obviously I've got more engineering background that you. Otherwise you would have responded when I replied to this question the first time and asked the same of you.

So answer it yourself or STFU

 

[drgrant]

Under the current conditions you are absolutely right. But I think its debatable if my suggested process, at large scale, wouldn't be cheaper. Once a press is set up to punch the hole it would be quick and pennies per receiver. The punch itself would be a comparatively small unit, and fine accuracy isn't necessary. The plug would be cheap to mass produce, and a simple press to press them in. It's not a major stress point so you're really just plugging the hole to keep the dust out. Heck now that I think about it, punch the hole and plug it with plastic.

As I've said, the real stumbling block is the laws, they would need to be changed

Trying to make the ATF happy is more expensive than my idea. Plus outfitting new lowers is way, way cheaper in a time value cost sense. Plus they could even put subtle branding on it in the process.

Also CMP is extremely risk averse. They're not going to make a plug thing only to have the ATF change their mind in 4 years when we end up with another commie for president if we get unlucky.

 

[jct61765]

I'm not against selling the uppers......I'm saying I think alot of people will be surprised at how many people will actually buy a beat to snot army surplus m16 upper......I just can't for the life of me figure out why.

@42! Issue he thinks they can sell the whole gun. I keep trying to explain you can't turn the lower into a semi and make it permanent. Aside from the law saying it will always be a full auto. You will never know if the upper was from colt or FN.

 

[jct61765]

Under the current conditions you are absolutely right. But I think its debatable if my suggested process, at large scale, wouldn't be cheaper. Once a press is set up to punch the hole it would be quick and pennies per receiver.

Punch a hole in what, the lower? You can't do that either. You will break the material. How do you fill in the void that was milled out for the full auto components?

 

[jct61765]

Obviously I've got more engineering background that you. Otherwise you would have responded when I replied to this question the first time and asked the same of you.

So answer it yourself or STFU

You never answered me. Small weapons engineer. I was able to go to ARDEC in new jersey. So what degree do you have???

 

[42!]

@42! Issue he thinks they can sell the whole gun. I keep trying to explain you can't turn the lower into a semi and make it permanent. Aside from the law saying it will always be a full auto. You will never know if the upper was from colt or FN.

No semi is ever permanently a semi, they can all be converted, doesn’t even matter what it started out as. It’s all about the level of effort and the current laws reflect this.

Your problem is, the law told you it was so, and you think that means it is unquestionable. But reality is the law only says what is unlawful right now, not what is possible or what the law may say in the future.

And right now the congress might be open to a small change granting some kind of exception to the CMP, it’s how theCMP has operated thus far.

And remember that part where I said the laws would have to change

 

[42!]

You never answered me. Small weapons engineer. I was able to go to ARDEC in new jersey. So what degree do you have???

So the army taught you about guns, not impressed , doesn’t mean anything. There is an army driving school to, doesn’t make those people race car drivers or automotive engineers.

And your comment in another post about what do you fill the space when the full auto parts are removed, really makes me wonder. The answer is, there really is nothing that must be filled, a full auto lower can be made semi without charging the lower.

All that needs doing is making the lower compliant. A new lower is compliant if it has no disconnect pivot hole and there is a blocked area in the back of the lower. The same affect could be had by welding in a block and punching out the pivot hole. Then all you’d need is an acceptance by the ATF. May not even need a new law.

 

[jct61765]

So the army taught you about guns, not impressed , doesn’t mean anything. There is an army driving school to, doesn’t make those people race car drivers or automotive engineers.

And your comment in another post about what do you fill the space when the full auto parts are removed, really makes me wonder. The answer is, there really is nothing that must be filled, a full auto lower can be made semi without charging the lower.

All that needs doing is making the lower compliant. A new lower is compliant if it has no disconnect pivot hole and there is a blocked area in the back of the lower. The same affect could be had by welding in a block and punching out the pivot hole. Then all you’d need is an acceptance by the ATF. May not even need a new law.

The 20+ years does make me somewhat of an expert. Going to driving school doesn't make you an expert. 20+ years does. You're originally talking about modifications to a lower. I keep telling you it can't be done.

 

[42!]

The 20+ years does make me somewhat of an expert. Going to driving school doesn't make you an expert. 20+ years does. You're originally talking about modifications to a lower. I keep telling you it can't be done.

Well we are going to disagree, I think squaring off an existing hole, in that location, is a very minor modification. That's all we are talking about. Given the location and design of the lower I don't see this as an issue.

But since you are arguing from a position of authority, I think you should share about those alleged 20+ years. You must have designed and manufactured dozens of models of firearms in that time. Take some credit, tell us about your "expert" experience.

 

[Mountain]

Judging by the tool marks on the receiver heel, I’m “guessing” it’s a forged receiver that was machined to final form (I.E. not cast). Just a guess.

Who knows, but I was thinking the same. If cast, why the machining? Too easy to have an as-cast finish so why add a machining step? Eventually we'll know the facts.

 

[Mountain]

The 20+ years does make me somewhat of an expert. Going to driving school doesn't make you an expert. 20+ years does. You're originally talking about modifications to a lower. I keep telling you it can't be done.

LOL does this count as a 'modification to a lower'? AFT probably thinks so.

Is he talking about from a 80%?

Wishful thinking only, but would be nice if the old M14's could be re-classified and converted to semi. Set them up with a fake switch that is permanently welded in?

 

[Mountain]

Trying to make the ATF happy is more expensive than my idea. Plus outfitting new lowers is way, way cheaper in a time value cost sense. Plus they could even put subtle branding on it in the process.

Also CMP is extremely risk averse. They're not going to make a plug thing only to have the ATF change their mind in 4 years when we end up with another commie for president if we get unlucky.

I wouldn't call them extremely risk averse. I'm not going to highlight on this forum why they are not (and others please don't be a dumbass), but they aren't exactly a Palmetto.

 

[AMV]

Punch a hole in what, the lower? You can't do that either. You will break the material. How do you fill in the void that was milled out for the full auto components?

It would be drill a hole in the lower, The same way colt did it back in the day, granted the lower had less machine work done internally, but a hardened steel block and blind pin is what is being talked about here to fill the void,The colt version prevented a full auto carrier being installed as well, As time went on manufacturers got more comfortable adding the auto features to the upper and lowers…..I believe ATF only requires no auto sear pin hole an a shelf to prevent sear to fit, all another auto parts can be used

 

[42!]

It would be drill a hole in the lower, The same way colt did it back in the day, granted the lower had less machine work done internally, but a hardened steel block and blind pin is what is being talked about here to fill the void,The colt version prevented a full auto carrier being installed as well, As time went on manufacturers got more comfortable adding the auto features to the upper and lowers…..I believe ATF only requires no auto sear pin hole an a shelf to prevent sear to fit, all another auto parts can be used

so something similar to what I suggested has already been done. I have no problem admitting I missed this. So all my post could have been reduced to just needing Congresses OK, just like the CMP would need to return other arms, and needed to bring back the 1911s.

So @jct61765 I guess you can convert a full to a semi, so much for your 20+ years.

 

[Mountain]

Judging by the tool marks on the receiver heel, I’m “guessing” it’s a forged receiver that was machined to final form (I.E. not cast). Just a guess.

Confirmed- New CMP M1 receivers are forged.

 

[BigGreen2000]

Confirmed- New CMP M1 receivers are forged.

Nice! How did you find that out? My "second guess" is Bula Forge . . .

 

[Mountain]

A fellow CMP competitor saw a statement from CMP's CEO.

 

[rosco61]

Why are those windagage marks so jacked up ?