"No Firearms" Signs

[tuna]

I've seen many people post here saying that the "No Firearms" signs that a business puts up is not binding, and that CCW is permissable, unless you aren't concealed very well and asked to leave. In trying to find this myself, I've come upon this law in the MGLs and am now confused. It seems to me that a posted notice would serve as forbidding someone entry.

CHAPTER 266. CRIMES AGAINST PROPERTY


Chapter 266: Section 120. Entry upon private property after being forbidden as trespass; prima facie evidence; penalties; arrest; tenants or occupants excepted


Section 120. Whoever, without right enters or remains in or upon the dwelling house, buildings, boats or improved or enclosed land, wharf, or pier of another, or enters or remains in a school bus, as defined in section 1 of chapter 90, after having been forbidden so to do by the person who has lawful control of said premises, whether directly or by notice posted thereon, or in violation of a court order pursuant to section thirty-four B of chapter two hundred and eight or section three or four of chapter two hundred and nine A, shall be punished by a fine of not more than one hundred dollars or by imprisonment for not more than thirty days or both such fine and imprisonment. Proof that a court has given notice of such a court order to the alleged offender shall be prima facie evidence that the notice requirement of this section has been met. A person who is found committing such trespass may be arrested by a sheriff, deputy sheriff, constable or police officer and kept in custody in a convenient place, not more than twenty-four hours, Sunday excepted, until a complaint can be made against him for the offence, and he be taken upon a warrant issued upon such complaint.

I've also found this, which specifically prohibits entry with a firearm, with the intent of discharging them, which I'm guessing would technically NOT be CCWing.

CHAPTER 266. CRIMES AGAINST PROPERTY


Chapter 266: Section 121. Entry on land with firearms


Section 121. Whoever, without right, enters upon the land of another with firearms, with intent to fire or discharge them thereon, and, having been requested by the owner or occupant of such land or by his agent to leave such land, remains thereon, shall be punished by a fine of not more than two hundred dollars or by imprisonment for not more than two months, or both.

I didn't see anywhere in the MGLs where it specified how the signs were supposed to read (like Texas' 30.06 law). I'm not doubting those on here who say that the signage isn't binding in, say a Video Store, but am trying to find where it says that a property owner's signs aren't enforceable.

I'm not trying to cause trouble, just trying to make sure I've got the laws straight.

Thanks

 

[MichaelJ]

"What sign? Oh I'm sorry I didn't even see that when I came in. I will be more than happy to leave ... don't worry though, I won't be back until you see your customer's safety as a priority. Have a nice day."

That reminds me...I think I am going to the mall today.

 

[Admin]

"What sign? Oh I'm sorry I didn't even see that when I came in. I will be more than happy to leave ... don't worry though, I won't be back until you see your customer's safety as a priority. Have a nice day."

+1

 

[dbhn]

I think it is the MA trespass laws that this becomes applicable. You have to be asked and refuse to leave before it is a crime. I could be wrong though.

 

[drgrant]

MA is a "trespass standard"; state. This means that the only way there is a problem is if you are "discovered" and asked to leave, and you refuse. The only exceptions to this are buildings or facilities where carry is otherwise banned by statute or real criminal law.

This is no different than bringing a dog someplace where the property owner doesn't allow it, and being told to leave and then refusing.

Binding signage, as a rule, mostly exists in the "new ccw" states that have become shall issue in the past 10-20 years. Most of the older ones don't have it at all, or have a pretty limited set of laws about means/allowances WRT prohibiting carry on "private" property. (Some states, IIRC, have a different set of laws depending on whether or not the property is one's home or a business open to the general public, etc... ) There are all kinds of nuances in various state laws, but in MA the "legally prohibited locations" thing is deadpan simple, aside from the BS about "schools", which aren't defined really well in the law.

-Mike

 

[MichaelJ]

MA is a "trespass standard"; state. This means that the only way there is a problem is if you are "discovered" and asked to leave, and you refuse. The only exceptions to this are buildings or facilities where carry is otherwise banned by statute or real criminal law.

Not to thread jack but does this include property with a "No Trespass" sign on it? Would that mean the law says I can go on it (just walking through the woods not hunting, etc) and unless the property owner asks me to leave and I refuse I cannot get in trouble? I have always wondered what the law was about that.

 

[dbhn]

That is the way I have always understood it for straight-forward trespassing. There are some further regulations about hunting (i.e. not without permission, etc.).

 

[drgrant]

Not to thread jack but does this include property with a "No Trespass" sign on it? Would that mean the law says I can go on it (just walking through the woods not hunting, etc) and unless the property owner asks me to leave and I refuse I cannot get in trouble? I have always wondered what the law was about that.

I'm not precisely sure what the law is WRT posted land in MA.... I would guess that, under that posting, that someone who is walking on posted land w/o the permission of the landowner is likely breaking a law at some level or another... what the punishment is, I am not sure of. I would wager a guess that it is probably not a good idea, at a minimum, to even be walking on properly posted land.

I just read S120, as referenced above... One of the big weirdnesses in there is what the hell is "improved or enclosed land"? The latter is understandable, a fence, or whatnot. The former, "improved"- what the hell does that mean? So if a guy has a manicured lawn with signs on it, its not the same as if he just has woods?

-Mike

 

[jdubois]

The former, "improved"- what the hell does that mean?

Improved Land is a real estate term. It generally means any land that has buildings, structures, or roadways, or which is used for farming or agriculture, or has otherwise been taken "out of it's natural state".

So I would guess that the original intent, at least, of S120 was to deny the right of the land owner to keep people off any undeveloped property that they may own.

 

[Carguy]

If it says no trespassing ...stay off it. Why go somewhere you are not wanted? CCW isn't an issue here.

If it says no firearms ...don't patronize a business that doesn't support your beliefs. If you need to patronize that business then the key to concealed carrry is the concealed part.

The bottomline is that simply posting a sign doesn't make a law. SIgns that say violators will be prosecuted...for what. Aks me to leave and I will, I didn't see the sign...sorry (as mentioned earlier). There must be some effort to enforce the rights of the business/land owners and a refusal by someone to make it a legal issue.

I smile and an ooops! Will fix either situation.

 

[drgrant]

If it says no firearms ...don't patronize a business that doesn't support your beliefs. If you need to patronize that business then the key to concealed carrry is the concealed part.

The bottomline is that simply posting a sign doesn't make a law.

It does in some states- like TX, where a violation of PC 30.06 is an actual crime. (Ironically enough however, most
of the binding signage one sees in TX, most of it is "noncompliant" with the standards described in the law, and
thus the signage itself is legally meanginless! ) Most of new england, at least MA/NH/ME/VT, afaik, does not have binding signage, however, at least as far as private buildings are concerned.


-Mike

 

[WayneWong]

Gun Free Zones

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beUQBXI22CA

 

[sig shooter]

for hunting tis "any land that is not posted is open to hunting,fishing and trapping" if your hunting and its not posted all they can do is ask you to leave and if you refuse you can get into trouble.