NRA is at it again

milktree said:
This requirement would eliminate nearly all basic firearms safety training in Mass.

Or is that your point?
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My point is that NRA sidesteps the complexities of a custom course for each of the 58 states by offloading the responsibility to an authority figure. I suspect that many instructors bypass this requirement and just explain it themselves, however, the credentialed 3rd party is in the NRA class outline provided to all instructors.

One can use the NRA certificate as the basis to qualify for the MA certificate, at which you may teach any of the classes on the list (though some course authors may assert a copyright claim to exclusivity). I know the course I had added to the it (LTC-013, the USPSA competition class/MA Edition - the "MA Edition" means "with law") has no such attorney or police officer requirement.
 
milktree said:
Well, since all safety courses that fulfill the legal requirements for a "Basic Firearm Safety Certificiate" (required for an LTC or FID) require some teaching of Mass. and federal gun law, why wouldn't this cover pretty much all training?
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Read my last post.
 
Rob Boudrie said:
My point is that NRA sidesteps the complexities of a custom course for each of the 58 states by offloading the responsibility to an authority figure. I suspect that many instructors bypass this requirement and just explain it themselves, however, the credentialed 3rd party is in the NRA class outline provided to all instructors.

One can use the NRA certificate as the basis to qualify for the MA certificate, at which you may teach any of the classes on the list (though some course authors may assert a copyright claim to exclusivity). I know the course I had added to the it (LTC-013, the USPSA competition class/MA Edition - the "MA Edition" means "with law") has no such attorney or police officer requirement.
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Wait... are you saying there are Mass. SP approved "basic firearm safety" courses that *don't* have a segment on Mass. and federal law?

I'm 99-44/100% sure that to issue a Mass certificate you *must* have a law segment, regardless of what the base curriculum provides.

e.g.: NRA Basic Pistol has nothing in it about Mass. or federal law. However, if I teach NRA BP *and* include a law segment, then it qualifies for the Mass. safety cert.

Requiring a lawyer or cop to do the law part would make it basically impossible for me to issue certificates, because I'm neither a lawyer nor a cop.
 
milktree said:
Wait... are you saying there are Mass. SP approved "basic firearm safety" courses that *don't* have a segment on Mass. and federal law?
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Actually, I am. The NRA Home Firearms Safety class does not have a law section, but has been approved:


One can look at the CMR and infer that a law section must also be taught, but this is not explicit included as part of the approval process, as the class is listed as "NRA Home Safety Course", not "NRA Home Safety course with law added.".
 
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Rob Boudrie said:
Actually, I am. The NRA Home Firearms Safety class does not have a law section, but has been approved:


One can look at the CMR and infer that a law section must also be taught, but this is not explicit included as part of the approval process, as the class is listed as "NRA Home Safety Course", not "NRA Home Safety course with law added.".
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Um... *none* of them say "with law added". That means the "law added" isn't actually a requirement, at all, or it's a requirement for all of them (if it's not there already)

Or maybe I'm splitting hairs the wrong way.

The *course* (as defined by the NRA or whoever) doesn't have to have law, but the course (as taught by a Mass SP certified instructor) does.

e.g.:

15 CMR 3.05(2) said:
(2) Basic Firearms Safety Course Curriculum Criteria. Curriculum for a BFS course shall include curriculum criteria as described in M.G.L. c. 140, § 131P(b).
(a) A BFS course used as a prerequisite for a FID shall use rifles and/or shotguns as the primary subject matter of the curriculum unless the course is an approved LTC BFS course. A BFS course used as a prerequisite for a LTC shall use pistols and/or revolvers as the primary subject matter of the curriculum.
(b) Certain BFS course curriculums do not contain a firearms related law component. Such curriculums can still meet Department of State Police curriculum criteria by utilizing guest speakers familiar with firearms laws or by utilizing or distributing to its students written informational pamphlets/books/videos by an entity/individual familiar with firearms laws to cover that portion of the course.
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C. 140 § 141P(b) said:
(b) The colonel of state police shall promulgate rules and regulations governing the issuance and form of basic firearms safety certificates required by this section. Said colonel shall certify certain persons as firearms safety instructors and shall certify safety course curriculum. Such certification shall be for a period of ten years, unless sooner revoked by reason of unsuitability, in the discretion of said colonel. The department of state police may impose a fee of $50 for initial issuance of such certification to offset the cost of certifying instructors. The fee for certification renewal shall be $10. Firearms safety instructors shall be any person certified by a nationally recognized organization that fosters safety in firearms, or any other person in the discretion of said colonel, to be competent to
give instruction in a basic firearms safety course. Applicants for certification as instructors under the provisions of this section shall not be exempt from the requirements of this chapter or any other law or regulation of the commonwealth or the United States. Upon application to the colonel of state police, said colonel may, in his discretion, certify as a firearms safety instructor any person who operates a firearms safety course or program which provides in its curriculum: (a) the safe use, handling and storage of firearms; (b) methods for securing and childproofing firearms; (c) the applicable laws relating to the possession, transportation and storage of firearms; and (d) knowledge of operation, potential dangers and basic competency in the ownership and usage of firearms.
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So, that seems kinda clear to me that the course *as a whole*, in order to issue a BFS cert., must include some law, even if the underlying course does not, as taught in other states (or without the Mass BFS cert)

If my undertanding is correct, I can hand out my carefully written booklet and talk at length based on my familiarity with firearms laws and meet the requirements of 140§141P(b) and 15 CMR 3.05(2)

Where's the corner case I'm missing that doesn't require a law segment?

Requiring the law segment to be taught by a lawyer or cop would kill a lot of courses.
 
Requiring the law segment to be taught by a lawyer or cop would kill a lot of courses.
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The fact that the NRA class does not include law means you cannot violate the NRA policy by teaching the law without a JD or LEO cert as long as you do not claim that is part of the NRA class.

Nice find on the CMR.
 
milktree said:
Well, since all safety courses that fulfill the legal requirements for a "Basic Firearm Safety Certificiate" (required for an LTC or FID) require some teaching of Mass. and federal gun law, why wouldn't this cover pretty much all training?
Click to expand...

milktree said:
Wait... are you saying there are Mass. SP approved "basic firearm safety" courses that *don't* have a segment on Mass. and federal law?

I'm 99-44/100% sure that to issue a Mass certificate you *must* have a law segment, regardless of what the base curriculum provides.

e.g.: NRA Basic Pistol has nothing in it about Mass. or federal law. However, if I teach NRA BP *and* include a law segment, then it qualifies for the Mass. safety cert.

Requiring a lawyer or cop to do the law part would make it basically impossible for me to issue certificates, because I'm neither a lawyer nor a cop.
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The actual NRA BP/HFS courses do not have a law compliment. Per NRA, after you teach that you are supposed to issue the NRA cert and if you are then teaching a law portion (as required by the CMR), NRA would like you to state that you aren't teaching it as an NRA Instructor . . . and in this case, you are teaching it as an MSP BFS Instructor. Then issue the MSP BFS cert to the student. It's really a joke, but by paying your $50 to MSP, they are certifying that you are knowledgeable of Mass gun laws! In my experience, most firearms instructors are just as bad as gun shop employees wrt <lack of> knowledge of Mass gun laws. BTW, per the CMR, you don't actually have to teach the law, you can hand them a printout of the info (that they will never read) and that suffices to meet the requirement.

The NRA PPIH/PPOH classes have a law section and demand that the person that teaches it must be a lawyer or law enforcement officer who is knowledgable of the state's gun laws. And we all know that there really aren't many of either category in MA. Instructors that I know that don't meet those criteria pay a lawyer or LEO to teach that section. Since I'm qualified I teach it and tell the students that I'm teaching it not as an NRA instructor but as an LEO. I've also had another PPIH instructor hire me to teach that section of the course for them.

67ray said:
You give classes for the money?
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Yes, it is part of my business. Nobody else pays for my liability insurance, rental of the classroom/range use, ammo, cost of guns used for teaching, or any of the other expenses that go with teaching. I know that some do it for free and those that run a gunshop or pack classrooms with 20 students at a time have a low marginal cost/student so that they can do it for very little cost to the student. Most of us don't have that luxury.
 
Rob Boudrie said:
The fact that the NRA class does not include law means you cannot violate the NRA policy by teaching the law without a JD or LEO cert as long as you do not claim that is part of the NRA class.

Nice find on the CMR.
Click to expand...

Ok, good, we are in confused agreement!
 
dhuze said:
Ask them to stop sending the mail. They will. They would rather send it to the people who will send them more money.

I don't remember the numbers now, but the mailings bring in a substantial amount of money.

I have numerous credentials with the NRA and I get lots of crap mail. It doesn't bother me all that much to transfer it to the trash.
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Funny you mention this. I got my response via email yesterday from my request that the NRA stop sending me mail. Turnaround time on the request.......well......I sent the email to the NRA in March 2019! A f***ing year to get a response.
 
AntiHippie said:
Have to pay for three pounds of junk mail per member per week somehow! Getting bombarded with “send us $100 or Obama will eat a baby and send the UN to confiscate your 10/22” garbage a few times a week is what convinced me to STOP giving them my money.
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Jeezus, not this again. Just opt out of receiving mail! It couldn't be easier. I have got a single mailing from the NRA in 5 years. Nothing, zip, nadda.
 
I will not renew. It is not a business for me, I trained reluctant newbies in their setting - usually their home, one on one. It was a way to introduce people to the sport. The certificates are not needed where I live now for someone to get a LTC. I've taught graduate level courses for 30 years--I don't need the NRA for pedagogy advice. I am a life member and I'll still provide training to introduce people to shooting but I am done with the money grubbing "to pay for Wayne's suits." That comment made me laugh.
 
tbk5 said:
I will not renew. It is not a business for me, I trained reluctant newbies in their setting - usually their home, one on one. It was a way to introduce people to the sport. The certificates are not needed where I live now for someone to get a LTC. I've taught graduate level courses for 30 years--I don't need the NRA for pedagogy advice. I am a life member and I'll still provide training to introduce people to shooting but I am done with the money grubbing "to pay for Wayne's suits." That comment made me laugh.
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This wisdom of that depends on where you live and go beyond being able to help people get LTCs. In "may issue" areas or "we limit most permits to target only" areas it can come in handy to be "officially certified". In free areas, not so much.
 

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