Obama to shoot down armed pilots

[ARV]

Pressure loss? no?

Nah, IIRC mythbusters tested it. Complete bust, nothing happened.

 

[ochmude]

This is another myth that NEEDS TO DIE, too.

Not sure what they have now but for awhile but FAMs used to carry Speer 125gr GDHPs in .357 Sig... the same stuff someone on the ground might use.

The reality is that a small gunfight on a large jet is probably is not going to result in it crashing. (well, unless the people driving the plane get taken out!)

-Mike

Don't know about FAM's, but like I posted a couple pages ago, FFDO's carry 180gr Federal HST in .40S&W.

 

[KMM696]

My point exactly, their job is to fly the plain, not train to be anti terrorist forces. Instead, if they think they are being attacked, depressurize the cabin to the point where everybody in back is knocked out, at least on smaller regional flights. Privitise the Tsa and use the remaining cash to bolster the Air Marshalls program for flights longer that say six hours, or where an emergency landing is not feasable like over the ocean.

I'm pretty sure the airline risk analysis people are going to object to deliberately depressurizing the plane hoping that every passenger on board can take it. When the badguys start waking up below 10K feet, you've just delayed dealing with the problem. Modifying environmental systems to maintain depressurization is going to be a lot more expensive than a USP, ammo and 2 quals a year.

I'm also sure that the most effective way to get someone armed on those low probability flights that will have a threat is to arm the people who will be there anyway, the pilot(s). Their primary responsibility is to get the aircraft and it's contents back safely. Arming them is an extension of that responsibility. I don't expect them to be ninjas, but they'll be there and have the capability to accomplish more than hoping the door holds.

I would prefer that anyone on the flight who can legally carry at their departure and destination be allowed to, but that's never going to happen.

 

[usp45ct]

How trained do you need to be to shoot someone in the chest while they are trying to come in through a small doorway?

Holy hell, I'm amazed at how people overthink this shit.

- - - Updated - - -

Real trained is the right answer. If you think because you go to an outdoor range on a sunny day and the target is a solid 10 yards away, and you casually remove you weapon from its case and maybe put it in a holster so you can practice your draw, is somehow equivalent to being amped up on adrenalin, your arms arm tightening up, your breathing is shallow, and people over the radio and in the cockpit are screaming is the same thing; let me be the first to tell you it is way different. You look and check your background to see if you miss, you hit someone else, then what. Why i have problem with this is if they miss. Someone taking over the plane and you dump him, I have no problem with that. Missing and hitting someone, I have a problem with it. Give the a bang stick or some other contact weapon so they cannot miss, no problem.

 

[Jose]

Why i have problem with this is if they miss. Someone taking over the plane and you dump him, I have no problem with that. Missing and hitting someone, I have a problem with it. Give the a bang stick or some other contact weapon so they cannot miss, no problem.

Do you carry a handgun for self defense?

 

[Terminator03]

My point exactly, their job is to fly the plain, not train to be anti terrorist forces. Instead, if they think they are being attacked, depressurize the cabin to the point where everybody in back is knocked out, at least on smaller regional flights. Privitise the Tsa and use the remaining cash to bolster the Air Marshalls program for flights longer that say six hours, or where an emergency landing is not feasable like over the ocean.

While these are some great ideas you listed, I still don't think it's a bad idea to allow the pilot to be armed as a last resort, which was the whole point of the program anyway. Even if they only have 1 week of training a year, that is still better than most police officers who are 1,000,000 times more likely to have to use their sidearm, or even the average Joe that carries daily, yet only goes to the range for practice occasionally. I think that privatizing the TSA is a great idea, though.

 

[usp45ct]

Do you carry a handgun for self defense?

Yes, and I have been trained to use it and have pulled in on differentvoccasions and engaged targets with it as a primary weapon or as a secondary weapon while changing mags or clearing a stoppage or once, while out of primary rounds. but would I pull my carry out in a crowded place or on a train or a bus ( closet conditions to a plane) it would depend on the situation.

 

[Cap]

So you are saying its better for pilots to be unarmed with a terrorist on board?

I'll take a pilot with a pistol who fires 100 rds a year vs a pilot with no pistol.

 

[bostonfx]

I don't mind having armed pilots on my plane, but I also don't want airliners to take a toll from this program and file more bankruptcy resulting in less selections for my air travels.

 

[XTAV750]

It's such a last resort that it's almost not worth it.

The rule is this: The door stays closed.

No matter what is happening in the cabin, the cockpit door never opens. That's what is paramount in defending an airplane. Pilots can get an airplane on the ground pretty quick if required to. The time from recognition of a threat to getting wheels on the ground can be a lot faster than most people think. In the meantime, I think we can safely assume that the passengers aren't going to be sitting on their hands watching some pissed off hajis attempt to take over the airplane. After 9/11, I think those days are over.

Keep the door closed and the airplane under control. The rest of it is just a window dressing to make people feel safer.

That said, I'd be more than happy to have some FAM's watching my back any day.

 

[Terminator03]

Reimbursing $800 per willing pilot, one time, is not going to put airlines into bankruptcy. Heck, most pilots I know would be more than willing to use an approved personal firearm. They should simply open carry through the airport and on board. It would end, if they are not already, any ambitions of terrorists to attempt another 9/11 style attack.

The reason everything is so expensive in this world is because we overthink everything, at least liberals do, and want to insist that it is far more complex than it is.

Very well said, and I agree 100%! There is no reason at all this should even have government subsidies, or involvement at all, other than possibly some sort of FAA policy stating that pilots must be armed. Beyond that, the airlines should give a reasonable reimbursement for firearms and training, which could easily be passed along to the consumers with hardly anyone noticing the difference. If the airlines are too cheap to subsidize the firearm, and or training, all they would have to do at that point is to make it a condition of employment, and the pilots would need to consider that a cost of doing business, no different than buying uniforms. It really isn't that difficult...

 

[namedpipes]

I gotta be honest with you, I travel for work a lot and I do not feel safer knowing some of these pilots are armed. . . .

Well, despite the nay sayers here, I completely AGREE with you.

I do NOT feel safer knowing some of these pilots are armed.

What *would* make me feel safer is knowing that ALL flight crew are armed, including the chicks that pass out stale peanuts.

 

[Jose]

Yes, and I have been trained to use it and have pulled in on differentvoccasions and engaged targets with it as a primary weapon or as a secondary weapon while changing mags or clearing a stoppage or once, while out of primary rounds..

I don't give a shit about your infantry exploits. They are not relevant to this discussion.

but would I pull my carry out in a crowded place or on a train or a bus ( closet conditions to a plane) it would depend on the situation.

Hypocrite

 

[bostonasphalt2]

I don't give a shit about your infantry exploits. They are not relevant to this discussion.


Hypocrite

Boom! Headshot.

 

[CaptDan3]

Let the pilots keep there guns and give every passanger a baseball bat !! Then let someone try and take over a plane.

 

[blindfire]

Explain why tax payers have to foot the bill in the first place.

Also, I did a bit of digging and found this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glaser_Safety_Slug

Pretty sure this is what my dad carried when he traveled for the Navy.

 

[ochmude]

Pretty sure this is what my dad carried when he traveled for the Navy.

Relevance?

 

[usp45ct]

Oh, do they have to pass some sort of test of yours before you consider some of them OK and are no longer nervous?

You sound pretty arrogant, like my liberal friends. How would you know what the skills of said armed pilot are? Why would you really care? Your up in the air, not going anywhere and the SHTF. Either somebody has a gun or you sit there like sheep. I don't really see an in between there. The gun on board can only do good, no harm. You mention adrenaline dumps, hands shaking, whatever. As if that would somehow NOT happen to you if faced with the same situation. It happens to everyone, controlling it is very difficult. I'd venture to say even people as hard core as SEALS or something are just slightly better at channeling it and working through it. No human is immune and no stupid $25 million government program for civilian pilots is going to change that response significantly.

Sorry, I would not sit there like a sheep...as it seems you would which is why you brought it up. I am also not opposed to guns on board, just not the pilots. Let them fly the planes. I have No problem, and you would know this if you could read the entire post after your ADD meds, see that I am all for Air Marshals on all flights. We get taxed enough on flights already, I have no problem paying say and extra 10 or 20 dollars on a flight to know there is a Marshal on board.


And JOSEE
The infantry exploits are the point. It is called experience...you could have it it to but chose an easier path...which is why you do not, nor will you ever get it.

 

[namedpipes]

Explain why tax payers have to foot the bill in the first place.

Also, I did a bit of digging and found this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glaser_Safety_Slug

Pretty sure this is what my dad carried when he traveled for the Navy.

They do a nice job on pumpkins.

 

[Broc]

As long as these pilots are trained (and when I say trained I mean drilled to be 100% acurate with every single shot, because as we all know a missed shot on a plane easily spells doom for everyone on board at 36k feet) but other than that, I think he's making a dumb decision.

no it doesnt. you are wrong.

That is some hollywood BS, just like people flying 10 feet when shot with a shogun.

 

[Broc]

I gotta be honest with you, I travel for work a lot and I do not feel safer knowing some of these pilots are armed. Some one said it earlier, as long as they are trained. How much training can they possibly have? Is aa gunsight course one a year enough? Perhaps them shooting 1000 rounds a month in a high stress close quarter range would suffice? My point is I know entirely to many trained cops that put out maybe 100 rounds a year and are considered trained. So my question is, how trained are the pilots?

Get the cheapest seats. Problem solved. Thoe are also the farthest from the pilot, so the bullet would have to travel through every single person between you and the pilot.

I would rather be on a plane witha pilot that has a gun than be on with a pilot that doesnt have s**t.

Bullet holes won't do much to an airliner - Aloha Airlines Flight 243 was still able to land with THAT hole:

can you imagine being the person sitting in one of those sits? Holy s**t.

 

[Broc]

.

 

[Terminator03]

Looks like this is turning into another "out yourself" thread!

 

[Jose]

And JOSEE
The infantry exploits are the point. It is called experience...you could have it it to but chose an easier path...which is why you do not, nor will you ever get it.

What a crock of chickenshit.

Whatever the **** you did in the Army has absolutely nothing to do with the issue at hand and everyone here knows it.

You look like a fool wagging your dick trying to convince us how much of a billy badass you are and how you are such a voice of experience about the level of training a pilot needs to put someone down coming through a door.

If you are so afraid of getting shot by a pilot not trained to your "standards" stay the **** on the ground.

 

[usp45ct]

Jose. Lot of mention of male genetalia from an obviously angry man. DIY they throw you out during the don't ask don't tell

 

[ochmude]

Jose. Lot of mention of male genetalia from an obviously angry man. DIY they throw you out during the don't ask don't tekk

Just out of curiosity, do you actually know anything about Jose's military service?

 

[Broc]

My point exactly, their job is to fly the plain, not train to be anti terrorist forces. Instead, if they think they are being attacked, depressurize the cabin to the point where everybody in back is knocked out, at least on smaller regional flights. Privitise the Tsa and use the remaining cash to bolster the Air Marshalls program for flights longer that say six hours, or where an emergency landing is not feasable like over the ocean.

 

[Broc]

Can you guys stop fighting like girls?

you are gonna get this trainwreck of a thread locked

but if you keep going, one of you will get one of these:

 

[usp45ct]

Just out of curiosity, do you actually know anything about Jose's military service?

About as much as he knows about mine

 

[flippedr6]

So I have to pipe in on this one I am a pilot flying corp aircraft so I do know about airplanes and how these pilots train. First a plane will not tear to shreds if a bullet goes through the skin it would just have a rapid decompression.

Second to usp if you depressurize the plane the whole plane depressurizes, not just the passenger area. But lets for shit and giggles say it was possible the O2 mask drop automatically and flow O2 when there is a pressurization issue. So they would just use the masks that drop to stay conscious.

Third these pilots are not paid extra for being a ffdo, we as tax payers do not front the bill, they go to the training unpaid or use vaca time. They have to purchase there own weapon with there money. There training is the same as the Air Marshals they go to the same school. You could argue that we do pay because we pay the AM instructors with tax money. But they already get paid if there are no marshals training or qualing why not have them work instead of doing nothing?