Pepper spray and firearms for self defense

[hminsky]

How do people think about carrying pepper spray in relation to carrying a firearm for self-defense. Do people carry both? Do you think about what conditions one vs. the other would be applied? Or is that not a practical decision to have to make in a real life case of being assaulted?

 

[JAMMIN]

I say if you can protect yourself and your loved ones you should use what ever methods you have available, pepper spray, gun, knife whatever. Deciding on whatever is popular is done after you survive.

 

[kevin9]

Pepper spray is the only (legal) option for some of us who have neutered licenses or who work in no-carry zones. If I could carry I'm not sure I would carry pepper spray and a firearm. Seems to me it might invite second-guessing in a self-defense situation, or Monday morning quarterbacking thereafter.

 

[doobie]

How do people think about carrying pepper spray in relation to carrying a firearm for self-defense. Do people carry both? Do you think about what conditions one vs. the other would be applied? Or is that not a practical decision to have to make in a real life case of being assaulted?

I carry both or just pepper spray. Pepper spray would be used if I didn't think I need to kill someone/people to save myself. I wouldn't pull my firearm unless I felt confident it wouldn't be used against me and my own and I felt that I needed to kill to save myself/us.

 

[Twigg]

OC & 1911

I carry both. OC so there is a "less lethal" option, I've praticed with the training cannisters so I'll be able to use OC confidently is necessary.
The pistol remains concealed unless it's needed first.

I also have the card of an attorney in my wallet if I ever need to use either.

 

[Mass-diver]

I always carry both. A worse case senerio is to get into a fist-fight while you are carrying a pistol. You do not want to be attacked by an unarmed person while you have a gun on you.

If someone has a weapon, you shoot them right off the bat. If they are unarmed and you have a pistol on your hip you need to avoid the confrontation at all cost and if you can't get a way OC is the way to go.

 

[USMA-82]

I say if you can protect yourself and your loved ones you should use what ever methods you have available, pepper spray, gun, knife whatever. Deciding on whatever is popular is done after you survive.

Sounds a little like "Shoot 'em all, and let God sort them out."

First of all, in order to apply deadly force (firearm) in any situation, the following has to occur:
- You are in immediate jeopardy of death or serious injury;
- Your attacker has the means to do such harm right now;
- Your attacker has the ability to do such harm right now.

There has to be an "escalation of force" in any self-defense scenario:
- If you can avoid being somewhere that might be dangerous - don't go there
- If you are confronted with danger and can run - RUN
- If you can't run, try verbal de-escalation - try to talk your way out. That means putting your pride in your pocket, and apologizing for any offense, real or imagined.
- If the verbal sparring does not work, and you are in continued danger of attack, a quick shot of OC spray, or a quick chop to the attacker's throat can give you time to get away.
- If the attacker is armed, and one of the three requirements above are in effect, you may need to draw and shoot - but this is the last resort.

This one split second in your life will impact the rest of your life, so train, choose your equipment well, and have a plan. Be prepared to fight to win, and never give up until you do - there's only one chance. If you survive, be prepared to pay many, many thousands of dollars in legal fees, to suffer nightmares and depression, and experience alot of negative reactions from the sheep of society.

Obviously this is a simplistic summary of a very complicated subject, but it's also my way of answering the question - carry both. Or, to answer the question more completely, carry a folding knife, OC spray, spare rounds, a cell phone, and your lawyer's phone number any time you carry a gun. Then, pray you never need to use them.

 

[P-14]

There has to be an "escalation of force" in any self-defense scenario

+1

I took the GOAL course on use of lethal force in MA. If you CCW in MA, you need a non-lethal option and OC is the best choice. If there is no lethal weapon presented by an attacker, there is no justification for lethal force. YOU MUST HAVE A PLAN B. The course teachers recommended a kubaton/OC spray that I now carry all the time: http://www.selfdefenseproducts.com/defender.htm or http://www.wartimethings.com/kubaton-pepper-spray-p-255.html

I ALWAYS carry a folder in the back pocket and the kubaton/OC spray with the keys. I CCW when I can (depending on where I'm going and what's allowed).

 

[KMaurer]

The "escalation of force" concept is useful and something everyone should understand completely. In the real world, however, there are both encounters that evolve over a sufficient period of time to take action do escape or de-escalate the situation, and encounters that take place so quickly that the only was out is immediate use of everything you've got. There are also a lot of life or death violent encounters where a gun is more of a distraction than a solution. One needs to be mentally prepared to deal with any situation appropriately. One size never fits all, regardless of what size it might be.

Ken

 

[Mass-diver]

You are on your way out to dinner. As usual you are carrying. At some point you notice the guy behind you is tailgating and seems irate. You are not sure why he is mad, maybe you cut him off without realizing it? He follows you into the parking lot, exits his car and heads in your direction. He's a big guy and you aren't a highly skilled street fighter, in fact, you've been out of work for a few weeks with a bad back injury. Cursing at you, the man charges as your wife screams.

This is a nice time to have some OC. You can't legally shoot the guy, he's unarmed and just throwing punches, so not only is he going to beat you up real bad - but you could lose control of your weapon in the fight - in which he shoot you and the press has a field day about how stupid it is to carry a pistol. Again, I think everyone who carries should have some mace/OC.

 

[USMA-82]

You can't legally shoot the guy, he's unarmed and just throwing punches, so not only is he going to beat you up real bad - but you could lose control of your weapon in the fight - in which he shoot you and the press has a field day about how stupid it is to carry a pistol. Again, I think everyone who carries should have some mace/OC.

Not to throw a wrench in the works, but... in this scenario, could you not be facing death or serious bodily injury? Does getting "beaten up real bad" constitute serious bodily injury?

If you think you might "lose control of your weapon in the fight" (meaning the attacker intends to use it to shoot you), doesn't that justify deadly force on your part right away?

If the guy is big enough and tough enough - or has friends lurking in the shadows - OC might just piss him off as he proceeds to beat you to a pulp.

I don't have an answer.... but that's the problem. You have to make a decision instantly about what to do, and that action will impact the rest of your life. It's best to be prepared to make any number of responses - including your last resort.

 

[Mass-diver]

Not to throw a wrench in the works, but... in this scenario, could you not be facing death or serious bodily injury? Does getting "beaten up real bad" constitute serious bodily injury?.

As I understand it, I'm not facing death or serious injury until the guy starts kicking my ass. So, in theory, at somepoint in the fight (as, say my head is getting banged off the pavement) I could use weapon, but at that point I might not be able to. Likewise, I can't shoot him because he might get my weapon, he has to actually go for it first. In this state, IMO, if you shoot someone and they don't have a gun or knife you are going to be screwed (in fact, even if they do have a gun you might be in trouble).

So, just because you suspect you are going to lose a fist fight doesn't mean you can shoot the guy.

In college I was at a party that were broken up with mace, it's pretty strong stuff, I'm confident that if I get someone good it's going to have an effect. Plus, it always looks good if you mace someone and they keep coming and you end up having shooting them later.

Bottom line, I've always went by the general rule that you can't shoot someone who doesn't have weapon, but you can mace just about anyone who threatens you. In a state that hates guns, lots of people have a very favorable view of OC. Even the cops I know look a lot more favorably on a person using OC than their fists, espically if you are carry the mace legally. For me the threshold for drawing my weapon is very high (basically the bad guy has to have weapon), on the other hand, to be honest, anyone that threatens me is going to get maced. I'm a nice guy and I don't bother anyone, so if some unarmed tought guy wants to take out his frustation on me he is going to have to go through a stream of OC first.

 

[KMaurer]

You are on your way out to dinner. As usual you are carrying. At some point you notice the guy behind you is tailgating and seems irate. You are not sure why he is mad, maybe you cut him off without realizing it? He follows you into the parking lot, exits his car and heads in your direction. He's a big guy and you aren't a highly skilled street fighter, in fact, you've been out of work for a few weeks with a bad back injury. Cursing at you, the man charges as your wife screams.

This is a nice time to have some OC. You can't legally shoot the guy, he's unarmed and just throwing punches, so not only is he going to beat you up real bad - but you could lose control of your weapon in the fight - in which he shoot you and the press has a field day about how stupid it is to carry a pistol. Again, I think everyone who carries should have some mace/OC.

Since you didn't specify that I'd already exited my car, the solution is simply to start up again and drive away. OTOH, if I'm away from my car, then I could easily be justified in using my gun in self defense. Since I've got a bad back, and he's significantly bigger than I am, I could reasonably be in fear for my life and unable to safely retreat. If I were to wait until he was bouncing my head off the curb, it's undoubtedly far too late to resort to my gun. Good reason to have OC as a compromise approach.

Ken

 

[USMA-82]

Good discussion points, Mass-diver and Ken. I'm not trying to down-play the important role of OC in self-defense (hell, I'm a certifed OC/defensive spray instructor!). It just amazes me how many fuzzy areas there are when trying to justify the use of deadly force.

My feeling is that, at the moment of truth, I would be more likely to pull out the OC and try to escape a bad situation, rather than go for the gun. I worry that this "programmed response" to avoid deadly force at all costs could be my undoing. A hidden weapon that comes out at the last second (the most likely scenario in my mind) would not give me enough time to switch from the non-lethal to the lethal solution. This idea that the attacker will approach you with the knife exposed from 50 feet away is right out of West Side Story.

In the end, you make your decision and maybe end up (in Cross-X's words) a legal lab rat. Or you end up dead.

 

[JAMMIN]

Sounds a little like "Shoot 'em all, and let God sort them out."

First of all, in order to apply deadly force (firearm) in any situation, the following has to occur:
- You are in immediate jeopardy of death or serious injury;
- Your attacker has the means to do such harm right now;
- Your attacker has the ability to do such harm right now.

There has to be an "escalation of force" in any self-defense scenario:
- If you can avoid being somewhere that might be dangerous - don't go there
- If you are confronted with danger and can run - RUN
- If you can't run, try verbal de-escalation - try to talk your way out. That means putting your pride in your pocket, and apologizing for any offense, real or imagined.
- If the verbal sparring does not work, and you are in continued danger of attack, a quick shot of OC spray, or a quick chop to the attacker's throat can give you time to get away.
- If the attacker is armed, and one of the three requirements above are in effect, you may need to draw and shoot - but this is the last resort.

This one split second in your life will impact the rest of your life, so train, choose your equipment well, and have a plan. Be prepared to fight to win, and never give up until you do - there's only one chance. If you survive, be prepared to pay many, many thousands of dollars in legal fees, to suffer nightmares and depression, and experience alot of negative reactions from the sheep of society.

Obviously this is a simplistic summary of a very complicated subject, but it's also my way of answering the question - carry both. Or, to answer the question more completely, carry a folding knife, OC spray, spare rounds, a cell phone, and your lawyer's phone number any time you carry a gun. Then, pray you never need to use them.

Thank You for the lesson. One would hope that if you commit to carry a handgun the educated and informed amount of us already know this. I assume you were explaining OUR side to those that don't quite get the severity of carrying. You also assume that an escalation has an infinite amount of time. All the ACLU stuff is great but when your standing there minding your own business and you are attacked I hope for your sake that all that MA liberal, ACLU, hug a tree shit goes out the window and you DEFEND yourself, or go on the OFFENSIVE. Remember it is your life not the other way around, your not going to let someone TAKE your life in the bat of an eye because you were worried what was the right thing to do. Any soldier will tell you that you can learn all the classroom stuff you want, but when the bullets fly it goes right out the window. I understand about run away to fight another day, de-escalate the situation, apologize if you have to, but Mr. if I am with my family and I feel threatend...... I would hope everyone out there would do the same.

 

[USMA-82]

Any soldier will tell you that you can learn all the classroom stuff you want, but when the bullets fly it goes right out the window.

I was in the U.S. Army for ten years, and was fortunate never to have been shot at in anger. But my friends and classmates from the U.S. Military Academy who have been in combat tell me the exact opposite - you fall back on the training you received, and the combat drills that you practiced over and over again. There are times you have to improvise - granted - but you don't throw everything you've learned out the window and attempt to blaze new ground when the bullets fly.

You can call it ACLU stuff all you want - I call it appropriate response. Feeling threatened might be enough for you to draw your firearm, but don't be surprised if you are later charged with Assault with a Deadly Weapon, thrown in jail, go to trial, lose your license to carry, etc. A parking lot attendant in Marlborough recently felt "threatened" when two guys refused to move their car from a reserved parking area. That attendant is now without license, without guns, and probably wishes he had it to do all over again.

I carry every hour of the day that I'm awake, and constantly run through "what if" scenarios in my mind. I think about the various training tips I received in over a dozen firearms and self-defense courses, and try to apply them to the present. In the end it's up to each individual to decide how he will try to respond to an attack - I just don't think every response needs to be "deadly." Again, we have a split second to make a decision that will impact the rest of our lives.

 

[P-14]

Again, we have a split second to make a decision that will impact the rest of our lives.

+1. I agree. Overreacting is just bad - like the parking lot attendant - and it gives the anti-gunners more fodder.

 

[JAMMIN]

I was in the U.S. Army for ten years, and was fortunate never to have been shot at in anger. But my friends and classmates from the U.S. Military Academy who have been in combat tell me the exact opposite - you fall back on the training you received, and the combat drills that you practiced over and over again. There are times you have to improvise - granted - but you don't throw everything you've learned out the window and attempt to blaze new ground when the bullets fly.

You can call it ACLU stuff all you want - I call it appropriate response. Feeling threatened might be enough for you to draw your firearm, but don't be surprised if you are later charged with Assault with a Deadly Weapon, thrown in jail, go to trial, lose your license to carry, etc. A parking lot attendant in Marlborough recently felt "threatened" when two guys refused to move their car from a reserved parking area. That attendant is now without license, without guns, and probably wishes he had it to do all over again.

I carry every hour of the day that I'm awake, and constantly run through "what if" scenarios in my mind. I think about the various training tips I received in over a dozen firearms and self-defense courses, and try to apply them to the present. In the end it's up to each individual to decide how he will try to respond to an attack - I just don't think every response needs to be "deadly." Again, we have a split second to make a decision that will impact the rest of our lives.

I give up. I will take your word and roll over. Next time I am in a SHTF situation I will do the best thing that a person with a CCW should do and thats, nothing. First, I will evaluate my attacker and as he is screaming obsenitys at me and yelling I will kill you, I will apologize and in the amount of time it takes this 6' 250lb individual to close down the 4 feet he was standing away from me I will try to turn my back and run into the 3 guys he had behind me and when they pull bats and screw drivers and guns I will lay my peice down on the ground an say Can we have a do over I wasn't ready for this scenerio.

 

[KMaurer]

I give up. I will take your word and roll over. Next time I am in a SHTF situation I will do the best thing that a person with a CCW should do and thats, nothing. First, I will evaluate my attacker and as he is screaming obsenitys at me and yelling I will kill you, I will apologize and in the amount of time it takes this 6' 250lb individual to close down the 4 feet he was standing away from me I will try to turn my back and run into the 3 guys he had behind me and when they pull bats and screw drivers and guns I will lay my peice down on the ground an say Can we have a do over I wasn't ready for this scenerio.

Yep, there's not a whole lot you can do when you've become a victim of your own complete lack of situational awareness. Once you let yourself get into that sort of position you need to make an instant decision between spending the rest of your life in prison for killing an overexcited high school teacher arguing with his buddy on his bluetooth, or getting beat to death by Mongo and his fellow tweakers. Sounds like a damn good reason to stay aware and keep running through those "what if" scenarios in your head to me. Of course you could always wander around in Condition White until you're forced to maks a snap shoot-don't shoot decision and pray it's the right one.

Ken

 

[P-14]

Yep, there's not a whole lot you can do when you've become a victim of your own complete lack of situational awareness....... Of course you could always wander around in Condition White until you're forced to make a snap shoot-don't shoot decision and pray it's the right one.

+1, Ken. For those that don't know the teachings of Col. Jeff Cooper:

http://www.teddytactical.com/SharpenBladeArticle/4_States of Awareness.htm and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Cooper

 

[USMA-82]

I give up. I will take your word and roll over. Next time I am in a SHTF situation I will do the best thing that a person with a CCW should do and thats, nothing. First, I will evaluate my attacker and as he is screaming obsenitys at me and yelling I will kill you, I will apologize and in the amount of time it takes this 6' 250lb individual to close down the 4 feet he was standing away from me I will try to turn my back and run into the 3 guys he had behind me and when they pull bats and screw drivers and guns I will lay my peice down on the ground an say Can we have a do over I wasn't ready for this scenerio.

I'm not advocating that you give up, but if you find yourself in that situation, you're screwed. You were probably somewhere you shouldn't have been, you were wandering around in "condition white" - unaware of the potential attackers approaching you, and you let the screaming nutcase get within 4 feet of you. If you've had any self-defense firearms training, you're familiar with the Tueller Drill, in which we learn that, on average, a motivated attacker can close in and contact you from a distance of 21 feet in the time it takes to draw and fire one shot.

In that scenario, no, there's no time for other options - you've already screwed up beyond belief. You're now in survival mode, and must do whatever needs to be done to live through the ordeal. All I'm saying, all I have been saying, and all that professional self-defense trainers have been saying is: don't get caught in that situation.

But hey - you know better, so good luck. See you on the front page....

 

[JAMMIN]

Are you married with children? If so I fear for there safety, if not get a wife and some kids and then talk about the Tueller drill when an irate fan at the Barney concert tries to slit your throat over spilt popcorn. You keep bringing up these ideal scenerios like you know where and when everything is going to happen. Are there dead Seals, Green Berets, Rangers? Duh, Yes. They have the best training in the world but shit happens. Try you Tueller system on the DC sniper a few years ago. They were feuling there cars at a gas station. I want to know what world your living in?

 

[JAMMIN]

Not to throw a wrench in the works, but... in this scenario, could you not be facing death or serious bodily injury? Does getting "beaten up real bad" constitute serious bodily injury?

If you think you might "lose control of your weapon in the fight" (meaning the attacker intends to use it to shoot you), doesn't that justify deadly force on your part right away?

If the guy is big enough and tough enough - or has friends lurking in the shadows - OC might just piss him off as he proceeds to beat you to a pulp.

I don't have an answer.... but that's the problem. You have to make a decision instantly about what to do, and that action will impact the rest of your life. It's best to be prepared to make any number of responses - including your last resort.

I didn't read this before I most have skipped it, but I agree with this 100%.

 

[USMA-82]

Roger, out.

 

[JAMMIN]

Everyone keeps talking about these scenerios, but what about the students in the class room at Virginia Tech., no form of self deffense instruements. They were lined up and shot. Are you guys going to be the guys that say "I would have survived because I went over scenerios in my head." Or what if your sitting in church w/ your family and a crazed person starts gunning and your without a gun do the bullets bounce off of you because you know scenerios. You can be any place at anytime and be in the wrong place. You don't have to go to a bad place in town you could be at a birthday party or a Christening. The bad guys don't stop for shit.

 

[JAMMIN]

Roger, out.

That doesn't mean I still don't think that alot of your comments are 100% right for arguement sake that one was.

 

[drgrant]

Everyone keeps talking about these scenerios, but what about the students in the class room at Virginia Tech., no form of self deffense instruements.

You mean to tell me that someone couldn't have thrown a book
or a chair at the shooter, or even a set of keys? Unless
you're fighting in an empty space theres almost always something
that can be used as a weapon. At a minimum, the probable
victims could have at least slowed him down enough so that
some of them could escape, etc.

They were lined up and shot.

Was there a rule written that said they had to stand
there?

Are you guys going to be the guys that say "I would have survived because I went over scenerios in my head." Or what if your sitting in church w/ your family and a crazed person starts gunning and your without a gun do the bullets bounce off of you because you know scenerios. You can be any place at anytime and be in the wrong place. You don't have to go to a bad place in town you could be at a birthday party or a Christening. The bad guys don't stop for shit.

I agree that bad things can happen anywhere at anytime- but one
thing is clear... most of the time, doing "something" is typically
vastly preferable to doing nothing. In some cases it might
not matter (like the so called "DC sniper" attacks) but in a
whole shitload of cases "doing something" can be the difference
between life and death.

-Mike

 

[kevin9]

You mean to tell me that someone couldn't have thrown a book
or a chair at the shooter, or even a set of keys? Unless
you're fighting in an empty space theres almost always something
that can be used as a weapon...

Even a pencil: Everyday Hero: Jeff May

...In some cases it might
not matter (like the so called "DC sniper" attacks) but in a
whole shitload of cases "doing something" can be the difference
between life and death.

+1

 

[KMaurer]

Everyone keeps talking about these scenerios, but what about the students in the class room at Virginia Tech., no form of self deffense instruements. They were lined up and shot. Are you guys going to be the guys that say "I would have survived because I went over scenerios in my head." Or what if your sitting in church w/ your family and a crazed person starts gunning and your without a gun do the bullets bounce off of you because you know scenerios. You can be any place at anytime and be in the wrong place. You don't have to go to a bad place in town you could be at a birthday party or a Christening. The bad guys don't stop for shit.

Since there's no law prohibiting it, WTF would I be sitting in church in my family without a gun? And just because there's a school rule (without the force of law) why wouldn't I have one at school? If on the other hand, there was a law prohibiting my having a personal defense firearm at school, I'd either be attending a school in a different jurisdiction or freighted to the Plimsolls with other weapons and have practiced evolutions based on those. It's precisely because bad stuff can happen any place and any time that a reasonable person would be armed in church and other "safe" places and be thinking about exactly how to respond if and when it does.

Just sitting back and telling yourself that you're OK because you've got a gun and will take care of business whenever and wherever it's necessary is dreaming. When TSHTF, you'll most likely do exactly what you've practiced all along, just sit there.

Ken

 

[JAMMIN]

I'm not pointing fingers at anyone. All I'm saying is is that regardless of how much training an individual has that does not mean that you will be bullet proof. Shit happens. Yes, as in any SCENERIO or any way of life the more you know the better off you are, but that does not mean because you studied firearms training and you carry a gun that know matter where you are you are going to come out on top. We all want to put a positive spin on what we THINK would happen but until that time happens nobody knows what truely will.