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Poll: What ammo would you buy if it were from a MA factory?
- Thread starter HooVooLoo
- Start date
Remember that the 5.56N and 7.62N have higher pressures than their civilian counterparts, as smaller differences etc.
5.56N vs. .223 Remington explains it better.
5.56N vs. .223 Remington explains it better.
I wasn't as clear as I should have been. You are correct the press is the easy part and the tooling/dies for the drawing however are the difficult part. I was actually thinking more about the auxiliary systems. How are you going to feed the machine, how are you going to handle and transport the work in process.
I am just a lowly mechanical guy and no manufacturing engineer but I know that in order to make a high volume low margin item like ammunition you really need a fairly high level of automation in order to be profitable. Especially in the US and even more so in a place like Mass. I can't think of very many high volume manufacturing outfits still in the general North east outside of: Gillette (Mass), Bic (CT), Pfizer in (CT) and is UMC still in CT? All of those are at the forefront of automation. You just can't afford to do business areound here other wise.
Either old school mechanical or fancy robotics, some level of automation will be needed for profitability. The amazingly fast Vietnamese can only work so fast.
namedpipes
NES Member
I'd like to suggest 6 or 10 lines of bread and butter ammo at reasonable prices (.223/.308/.45/etc), and then reserve a part of your production to manufacture some of the oddball ammo that is hard to find or very expensive. That you'd market at a higher margin.
Best of luck - you sure did not pick an easy path!
Best of luck - you sure did not pick an easy path!
HooVooLoo
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The reults are interesting so far. When we reach 150 votes, I'll settle upon 3 calibres.
In the meanwhile, I'll be getting some input on caselaw from one of our resident legal esquires. Our main niche depends on it. :-|>
Keep on voting! ;-)
In the meanwhile, I'll be getting some input on caselaw from one of our resident legal esquires. Our main niche depends on it. :-|>
Keep on voting! ;-)
HooVooLoo
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Well, I am going through a few issues related to my "past life" as it were. which is complicating and extending timelines, of course.
At this moment, I forsee the first box of ammo going out to the first few "testers" in summer of '09. Around Independence Day. Best guess I can give at the moment. Of course, circumstances change all the time.
Thank you again everyone for your supportive words and encouragement. If we can get past a couple of certain roadblocks, we will be good to go.
Stand by.
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HooVooLoo
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Noted.
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Those are the three I voted for.
I'd be interested in an M193 5.56 NATO clone over .223 though.
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Personally i would love to see as many calibers manufactured here as possible.... just another reason to add another caliber to "the family"!![[smile]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/001.gif "Smile [smile]")
boston_007
NES Member
all of the listed plus 6.5 grendel 
Voted, but please note I will buy:
1) what is cheap for training ammo, don't care where it's made I won't pay a premium
2) what is known and proven reliable for SD
I hope you can make a go of it. Good luck.
1) what is cheap for training ammo, don't care where it's made I won't pay a premium
2) what is known and proven reliable for SD
I hope you can make a go of it. Good luck.
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I voted, but I'd also like to add some support to those that asked for .308 and shotgun ammo.
As mentioned previously, many people that shoot a lot of ammo are also reloaders. Therefore, they don't buy as much factory ammo in the common calibers, particularly pistol calibers. But some people that chuck a fair bit of recreational stuff out of autoloading rifles and shotguns are not yet ready to jump into reloading those cartridges/shells.
Best of luck with this effort. We'll all appreciate it.
As mentioned previously, many people that shoot a lot of ammo are also reloaders. Therefore, they don't buy as much factory ammo in the common calibers, particularly pistol calibers. But some people that chuck a fair bit of recreational stuff out of autoloading rifles and shotguns are not yet ready to jump into reloading those cartridges/shells.
Best of luck with this effort. We'll all appreciate it.
BuggsBunny
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Exactly - I'm one of those people (I shoot handguns exclusively, though).
I would never reload, even if my ammo consumption increased significantly from what it is now. I simply have too many projects going on to make a project out of my ammunition - I'd rather just pay the extra money and open a box that is ready to shoot.
HooVooLoo said:
Interesting that, despite the lack of enthusiasm for the .38 evident in the poll, you chose to price this particular caliber - it happens to be, by leaps and bounds, the caliber that I shoot the most of. So .38 Special ammo prices are of great importance to me.
At the moment, I am shooting .38 +P 125-grain Blazer aluminum because I got a very good price on it and bought a number of cases. I paid $11.99 for a box of 50, which works out to $239.80 per case, plus tax.
Now, I would much prefer brass-cased ammo, but current prices on WWB, American Eagle, UMC or even S&B (when you can find it) are enough to make you tear your hair out. No way am I paying $20.00 for 50 rounds just to be able to save the cases when I don't reload or even know anyone who does. The scrap or sale value of the brass cases is something I haven't investigated yet, but I can't believe it'd be worth anywhere near the difference.
All I'm saying is that, at $17.50, you'd still have to come way down in price before it would lure me away from $11.99/box practice ammo, whatever the case material. I'd be willing to pay a little more for brass-cased ammo, but not much.
Of course, that $11.99 price is something I have only seen at one area shop (and they still have a bunch of it), and it's not likely that I'll be getting any more at this price once that shop is sold out of current inventory.
Reloaders will likely have a different take.
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I'm not totally sure on this. This forum is a concentrated group of enthusiasts, who most likely are more vocal on their own issues. I have a feeling that the general public may not be entirely in the same direction. Also, I don't see the big ammunition makers on here seeking opinions. Then again, maybe the original poster IS a big manufacturer doing some research. You never know. I just know that if it were me, I might go somewhere like this as a quick test of the waters, but not for something to base a business and major investment on. How do you explain to the bankers "I did a poll on an Internet forum for gun enthusiasts." as part of your plan?
Anyhow, I'm hoping this will come true some day, and that less expensive and higher quality inexpensive ammunition becomes more available. That said, the most used I bet is .22LR.
It's worth investigating. You may be overlooking the important fact that this will be a Massachusetts-based venture. Think about it... We can't get ammo through the mail, big-box retailers like Walmart seem to be getting out of the ammo business in Mass, and Dick's tends to have a limited selection and sells out as soon as they get the ammo in stock. Local shops are expensive.
The Massachusetts shooting community is larger than you may think. There are 8 gun clubs within 15 minutes of my house, and I bet if you were willing to drive for an hour, you could find a shooting competition/league 7 days per week when the weather is nice.
Talking to people on this forum is a good tactic, and I'm sure it's not the only marketing they're doing up front.
I hear what you're saying. When doing market research, I think it's a good idea to know both what the overall market wants as well as the enthusiastic core. Depending on the type of product, he enthusiastic core will often push features and performance though they may not constitute enough buyers to sustain a business.
I don't spend much time on other gun boards but I do see some manufacturers soliciting opinions over on AR15.com.
In the OP's case, I think asking on here is worthwhile though I'd also be asking the thoughts of MA based dealers.
HooVooLoo
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Well, a few things about the comments above.
A) Where did I ever state that our goal was to become a " multi-million-dollar business"? Where did I ever state that bankers or "major investment" would even be involved at this stage? I remember posting that an associate of mine and myself were thinking about trying this out because we feel there is a niche that has yet to be tapped here in Mass. Multi-million? Heh, that's so far off the radar, it is nauseating to bother contemplating.
I believe the standard financial statements for any start-up business shows red for the first 2-3 years, and THEN there comes a profit. I understand that bit.
B) I am not a major manufacturer. If I were, why would I be going through the trouble of a poll and reading all of these the board's threads day-after-day? If I were a major manufacturer, would I have the time to do so? Your spider-sense that is sensing that "something else is going on here" is not sensing the truth. Heh, silly lad.
C) I recall typing in the first post that negativity is needless here, for we are going to try something that against many odds, I feel can work. If you truly hope our idea will come true some day, then just sit back and wait, and keep the pessimism inside your own head. After all, it won't cost you a penny to do that.
Those two goals you hope come true are most of the main thrust of this effort. Not just inexpensive ammo, but QUALITY ammo that does not tatter the consumers' wallets. If we can achieve that, plus a few other niches, we will build up a decent customer base, and then from there…Well, the sky's the limit.
Yes, and that is the main reason we decided that the best place to start fetching ideas about the feasibility of this venture was here on NES. It is a free and easy testing for the response/reaction to the idea from the demographic we are aiming for…Those who shoot a lot in Mass.
When I joined NES, it did not take me long to realize that this forum is a valuable resource for ANYONE shooting in the NE. So I went green. But I wonder why after 3 years of being a registered user and after 1,300+ posts, you have not yet gone green?
Pppfffhht
HooVooLoo
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I already tried getting some feedback from local retailers. All I keep hearing is "NO, NO, NO", it can never work, will-not, cannot, don't bother...Blah blah blah. I didn't even have a chance to put my bowl of Cherrios on the counter before the pissing on them started.
But that is a parochial mindset that I feel CAN be overcome. We're going to try our best. And if in the end it DOES fail? At least we will have satisfaction of knowing we tried. That in itself is noble enough to put me to sleep at night with a smile.
If the ammo is good quality with an OK price Then I would happily support a local business!
