Practical Implications of H4885 for Purchasing and Possessing

Don’t put it past Larry and the retardedness of this law that he would see it that way. Personally I don’t agree that anything but springs and tubes/mag bodies can be considered parts or combo parts.
Yeah I don’t see how a follower can be an issue unless the follower is extended and that’s what blocks capacity. If no other parts are needed then having the mag with the regular follower is enough to be possession of a LCFD.

If it’s just anti-tilt followers for an AR mag that make no difference to capacity… I don’t see this being an issue. That’s not a part or combination of parts to build a mag unless you also have the body for a post-ban mag, spring, baseplate, etc. People who played the mental gymnastics before of keeping post ban mags disassembled thinking it was legal and then assembled when out of state are squarely the target of this.
 
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Yeah I don’t see how a follower can be an issue unless the follower is extended and that’s what blocks capacity. If no other parts are needed then having the mag with the regular follower is enough to be possession.

If it’s just anti-tilt followers for an AR mag that make no difference to capacity… I don’t see this being an issue.
But Midway does. That’s my point.
 
It looks like they thought of it this time:
The new definition of LCF explicitly exempts under (c) lever and pump shotgun magazine tubes like they do with rimfire lever guns in (b)
Yes. Good catch. So they clarified the contradiction and made clear thst large tubes on pumps, levers and bolts are legal. But the corollary is still true that large tubes on semis are still illegal. This is less ambiguous in the new law.

It’s going to take arrests and charges to educate some of these shops/people
 
Curious to what happens tommorow 8/2 in the gun shops.
Keep selling what is in inventory as far as rifles and lowers until they are gone? (Until the October 4885 effective date)

Stop the music until further clarification?
Four Seasons is taking this approach, and stated it in their email yesterday which makes sense to me, I think. The FFL owns (possesses) them in MA by 8/1, and therefore can sell remaining inventory.
 
It’s going to take arrests and charges to educate some of these shops/people
I'm going to guess that neither will happen despite the law being slightly less ambiguous. It doesn't help matters that the feeding device itself is ambiguous. Is a 5 shot tube really a 5 shot tube? Maybe at the listed chambering of the shotgun itself. I'm trying to remember what it was it might have been a Mossberg auto, but i had one shotgun that suddenly would hold 6 rounds of 2.75 if you used shotshell brands that have been crimped a certain way.
 
I'm going to guess that neither will happen despite the law being slightly less ambiguous. It doesn't help matters that the feeding device itself is ambiguous. Is a 5 shot tube really a 5 shot tube? Maybe at the listed chambering of the shotgun itself. I'm trying to remember what it was it might have been a Mossberg auto, but i had one shotgun that suddenly would hold 6 rounds of 2.75 if you used shotshell brands that have been crimped a certain way.
To make no mention of things like the Aguilla mini shells.
 
I'm going to guess that neither will happen despite the law being slightly less ambiguous. It doesn't help matters that the feeding device itself is ambiguous. Is a 5 shot tube really a 5 shot tube? Maybe at the listed chambering of the shotgun itself. I'm trying to remember what it was it might have been a Mossberg auto, but i had one shotgun that suddenly would hold 6 rounds of 2.75 if you used shotshell brands that have been crimped a certain way.
And then mini shells enters the chat.
 
So I have my interpretation as does everyone else. What is the consensus on “lawfully possessing” a post 2016 ar that is recently completed from a stripped reciever? It would seem somewhat clear to me a lower is not a firearm (currently) and is lawfully possessed today. If it is then assembled into a rifle today or going forward is there any serious danger to efa10 it. Until 10/23 that would seem to be the law of the land with the 7 day rule. Or just wait to assemble it and see how it shakes out?
My personal opinion or my opinion of what the 1st Circuit and lower will apply?

My opinion is that while Healy as the AG was within her authority to clarify an ambiguity of law at the time given Chervon doctrine's application, she did not have authority in this matter as there was no ongoing ambiguity in the application of the law. Massachusetts's legislature was perfectly clear in incorporating the federal assault weapons ban into Mass code.
Mass Chapt 140 Sect 121 said:
Section 121. As used in sections 122 to 131Y, inclusive, the following words shall, unless the context clearly requires otherwise, have the following meanings:—

''Ammunition'', cartridges or cartridge cases, primers (igniter), bullets or propellant powder designed for use in any firearm, rifle or shotgun. The term ''ammunition'' shall also mean tear gas cartridges.

''Assault weapon'', shall have the same meaning as a semiautomatic assault weapon as defined in the federal Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act, 18 U.S.C. section 921(a)(30) as appearing in such section on September 13, 1994, and shall include, but not be limited to, any of the weapons, or copies or duplicates of the weapons, of any caliber, known as: (i) Avtomat Kalashnikov (AK) (all models); (ii) Action Arms Israeli Military Industries UZI and Galil; (iii) Beretta Ar70 (SC–70); (iv) Colt AR–15; (v) Fabrique National FN/FAL, FN/LAR and FNC; (vi) SWD M–10, M–11, M–11/9 and M–12; (vi) Steyr AUG; (vii) INTRATEC TEC–9, TEC–DC9 and TEC–22; and (viii) revolving cylinder shotguns, such as, or similar to, the Street Sweeper and Striker 12; provided, however, that the term assault weapon shall not include: (i) any of the weapons, or replicas or duplicates of such weapons, specified in appendix A to 18 U.S.C. section 922 as appearing in such appendix on September 13, 1994, as such weapons were manufactured on October 1, 1993; (ii) any weapon that is operated by manual bolt, pump, lever or slide action; (iii) any weapon that has been rendered permanently inoperable or otherwise rendered permanently unable to be designated a semiautomatic assault weapon; (iv) any weapon that was manufactured prior to the year 1899; (v) any weapon that is an antique or relic, theatrical prop or other weapon that is not capable of firing a projectile and which is not intended for use as a functional weapon and cannot be readily modified through a combination of available parts into an operable assault weapon; (vi) any semiautomatic rifle that cannot accept a detachable magazine that holds more than five rounds of ammunition; or (vii) any semiautomatic shotgun that cannot hold more than five rounds of ammunition in a fixed or detachable magazine.
The bolded part calls out the official meaning of the text to have the same meaning as federal law - a law that was clarified by higher authority than the Mass AG. Therefore while she has authority to clarify ambiguities, there was no remaining ambiguity of law about copies and duplicates - what was federally legal and compliant was abundantly clear.
Therefore, the 7/20/16 declaration was a wish list of what she preferred dealers and citizens to follow but did not factually change a thing.

However, I am not the one that forces people into cages at gunpoint for malum prohibitum offenses.

The 1st circuit and below are going to interpret Loper as Chevron still has jurisdiction over her past declaration, therefore she had the authority as the regulating official to make a legally binding clarification of an ambiguity of law - which means every single AR platform firearm was illegal to possess or sell in Mass from 94 forward unless possessed prior to 13 Sept 1994.

Under that interpretation, building an AR today and registering on an eFA-10 is an admission of sufficient facts to the offense of possession of a banned assault weapon.

The truth is that those questions are irrelevant and will never be answered - the relevant question is can the commonwealth ban the people from keeping and bearing an arm in common use?
That answer is clearly no
The we ask if the AR platform is in common use - Neither Heller or Bruen answer this question. However, we do have some insight as to a threshold of what constitutes common use in Cataeno
So lets explore the arguments used in attempt to justify the ban

AR platform rifles are a modern development the founding fathers could not have foreseen:
In so doing, the court concluded that stun guns are “unusual” because they are “a thoroughly modern invention.” 470 Mass., at 781, 26 N. E. 3d, at693–694. By equating “unusual” with “in common use at the time of the Second Amendment’s enactment,” the court’s second explanation is the same as the first; it is inconsistent with Heller for the same reason

AR platform rifles are an instrument of war:
The court also opined that a weapon’s unusualness depends on whether “it is a weapon of warfare to be used by the militia.” 470 Mass., at 780, 26 N. E. 3d, at 693. It asserted that we followed such an approach in Miller and “approved its use in Heller.” 470 Mass., at 780, 26N. E. 3d, at 693. But Heller actually said that it would be a “startling reading” of Miller to conclude that “only those weapons useful in warfare are protected.” 554 U. S., at624. Instead, Miller and Heller recognized that militia members traditionally reported for duty carrying “the sorts of lawful weapons that they possessed at home,” and that the Second Amendment therefore protects such weapons as a class, regardless of any particular weapon’s suitability for military use.
Weapons in common use are protected regardless of suitability, or lack thereof, for military use.

AR platform rifles are unusually dangerous:
As to “dangerous,” the court below held that a weapon is “dangerous per se” if it is “ ‘designed and constructed to produce death or great bodily harm’ and ‘for the purpose of bodily assault or defense.’” 470 Mass., at 779, 26 N. E. 3d,at 692 (quoting Commonwealth v. Appleby, 380 Mass. 296,303, 402 N. E. 2d 1051, 1056 (1980)). That test may be appropriate for applying statutes criminalizing assault with a dangerous weapon. See ibid., 402 N. E. 2d, at 1056.But it cannot be used to identify arms that fall outside the Second Amendment. First, the relative dangerousness of a weapon is irrelevant when the weapon belongs to a class of arms commonly used for lawful purposes.
So now we know that a modern arm, even one of military use with a high degree of dangerousness, is protected as long as it is commonly used for lawful purposes.

So what is "common" - while this is actually a non-sequitur since the word "common" describes the use not the item, I will still explore this in reference to ARs

the pertinent Second Amendment inquiry is whether stun guns are commonly possessed by law-abiding citizens for lawful purposes today. The Supreme Judicial Court offered only a cursory discussion of that question, noting that the “‘number of Tasers and stun guns is dwarfed by the number of firearms.’” 470 Mass., at 781, 26 N. E. 3d, at 693. This observation may be true, but it is beside the point. Otherwise, a State would be free to ban all weapons except handguns, because “handguns are the most popular weapon chosen by Americans for self-defense in the home.” Heller, supra, at 629.

The more relevant statistic is that “[h]undreds of thousands of Tasers and stun guns have been sold to private citizens,” who it appears may lawfully possess them in 45States. People v. Yanna, 297 Mich. App. 137, 144, 824N. W. 2d 241, 245 (2012) (holding Michigan stun gun ban unconstitutional); see Volokh, Nonlethal Self-Defense,(Almost Entirely) Nonlethal Weapons, and the Rights To Keep and Bear Arms and Defend Life, 62 Stan. L. Rev.199, 244 (2009) (citing stun gun bans in seven States);Wis. Stat. §941.295 (Supp. 2015) (amended Wisconsin law permitting stun gun possession); see also Brief in Opposition 11 (acknowledging that “approximately 200,000 civilians owned stun guns” as of 2009). While less popular than handguns, stun guns are widely owned and accepted as a legitimate means of self-defense across the country. Massachusetts’ categorical ban of such weapons therefore violates the Second Amendment.
So while the Supreme Court doesn't give us a lower threshold of what is "widely owned" we know that 200k definitively meets that threshold. And with a minimum of 25 million AR platform firearms in circulation, they easily dwarf tazers by a factor of 125x the popularity.

However, the test is not if a weapon is common, it is if it is commonly used. So we must ask ourselves if the platform is commonly put to lawful or illegal purpose and what threshold of unlawful used withdraws protection.

With approximately 11k non-suicide homicides by firearm in the US annually, we can simply ask how many are committed normally by rifles as the AR platform is most commonly configured. The answer is nominally less than 400 or approximately 4% with long guns in general. As ARs are a subset of that class, they cannot be seen as "commonly used" for unlawful purpose. And that is backed by Heller's assertion that handguns cannot be banned even though they are the tool of the majority of crimes committed with aid of a firearm of any type.

In total, the AR platform firearm is clearly among those arms protected by the second if one simply takes the time to read and understand the case law surrounding the right to keep and bear arms. And that a court may contradict this fact because they pose some acute social risk is simply not allowed:
We know of no other enumerated constitutional right whose core protection has been subjected to a freestanding “interest-balancing” approach. The very enumeration of the right takes out of the hands of government—even the Third Branch of Government—the power to decide on a case-by-case basis whether the right is really worth insisting upon.
 
7/20/16 did not change the legality of anything, therefore it was lawfully possessed on 8/1/24
DV v Heller said:
We know of no other enumerated constitutional right whose core protection has been subjected to a freestanding “interest-balancing” approach. The very enumeration of the right takes out of the hands of government—even the Third Branch of Government—the power to decide on a case-by-case basis whether the right is really worth insisting upon.
None of that shit matters...
 
I'm going to guess that neither will happen despite the law being slightly less ambiguous. It doesn't help matters that the feeding device itself is ambiguous. Is a 5 shot tube really a 5 shot tube? Maybe at the listed chambering of the shotgun itself. I'm trying to remember what it was it might have been a Mossberg auto, but i had one shotgun that suddenly would hold 6 rounds of 2.75 if you used shotshell brands that have been crimped a certain way.
I agree. I’ve always considered the risk negligible. But as someone who walks right up to the line to say hello, I don’t knowingly cross over it.

It’s similar to the roster. Lots of shops play games with stuff adjacent to the roster and sell it as on roster with slightly defective fa10 paperwork. We just frame it and zero out all risk.
 
So my ten round magazine from Larry shipped but if I ever need a follower for it I guess I'm SOL...Man, what a f***ing joke.
Ten round magazine is not a large capacity part unless you take it apart
But you could use a follower to produce a large capacity magazine if you had all of the other components [rofl2]
 
I can see it now, pre 8/1 followers, no low ballers, I know what I have!
I designed and printed my own +1 followers for my 380 EZ when Smith sent me replacements for the factory followers that were just as shitty as the ones in the mags

Now have both FDM and resin printers - FMA/FMH
 
Ten round magazine is not a large capacity part unless you take it apart
But you could use a follower to produce a large capacity magazine if you had all of the other components [rofl2]
This is the crazy result you get when the left bans something... and then adds any/all individual parts that could be used to make that something. :oops:
 
A friend of mine in RI told me he listened to a podcast from Cape Cod Gunworks. He claims they said if you had a vertical grip on your AR before the 08/01/2024 you can keep it on there as it is grandfathered in.

Is this correct?
 
A friend of mine in RI told me he listened to a podcast from Cape Cod Gunworks. He claims they said if you had a vertical grip on your AR before the 08/01/2024 you can keep it on there as it is grandfathered in.

Is this correct?

I would say yes because if not, that means you need to comply with the entirely new features test and ARs do not pass.
 
A friend of mine in RI told me he listened to a podcast from Cape Cod Gunworks. He claims they said if you had a vertical grip on your AR before the 08/01/2024 you can keep it on there as it is grandfathered in.

Is this correct?

Yes. But not because it had a vertical grip.

If he owned ANY RIFLE THAT WOULD BE BANNED by the "Assault-style firearm" definition in 131M(a) on 8/1/24, it would be exempt from any restrictions as soon as H.4885 becomes law on 10/23/2024.

As of 10/23/24 you can put anything you want on any AR or receiver that was lawfully possessed by a MA LTC holder on 8/1/24. Period.
 
Yes. Good catch. So they clarified the contradiction and made clear thst large tubes on pumps, levers and bolts are legal. But the corollary is still true that large tubes on semis are still illegal. This is less ambiguous in the new law.

It’s going to take arrests and charges to educate some of these shops/people
It doesn't say that large tubes on semi's are illegal. It says that large tubes on pumps are legal. And I point this out to specifically point out the SPAS-12 from the world famous Jurassic Park movie. If you bought one on 8/1, so you don't have to worry about all that assault weapon funny business. And now we can just talk about capacity. It is absolutely a pump shotgun. It is also a semi auto shotgun. I don't see a part of the law that says this is a pump that can have a 20 round extended tube but then can't because it's semi auto.
 
Can an AR lower receiver that's in the system on 8/1 as a 22lr later be built/swapped to be 223/556? If so it would seem like all those people rushing to efa10 lowers would do well to put them in as 22lr.
why would you not do it as 223 now. 22lr has no special exemptions

Sure it does, under Herr Healey's proclamation anyway. Yes, I understand that's not law but it still buys you an estoppel defense.

- Anyone that took, at least, some of their lowers and built with dedicated AR15-22lr uppers was smart to do so. If eFA-10'd a few months back, fine. If switched over to 5.56 on July 31st, fine. If so, and as is appropriate, only you know the status and caliber of that / those rifles and the State would have to prove otherwise.

No one knows with 100% certainty how this will be interpreted, other than it will not be in our favor. Can't hurt to have multiple paths for dealing with this Anti-2A BS regarding commonly used firearms used for all-lawful purposes.

We need to keep reminding ourselves - what our State Government has chosen to do is be a bunch of Oath-Breakers. They hate normal males and testosterone.
 
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Under MA law there are no restrictions on your 8/1 object. We have to wait to see how the ATF handles this. Time will tell
I've got a form 1 pending from a 7/30 submission. I'll let everyone know what happens. Worst case it gets denied. I get the thing as a receiver until 10/23 at which point I'll marry the upper and lower together again and put a brace on it hence having a legal preban pistol (asw).
 
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