Practical Implications of H4885 for Purchasing and Possessing

You need to possess it lawfully on 8/1. This means as a SBR or as a receiver. But on 10/23 it can be a pistol and be legal, yes.

Massive unintended consequences. As I keep saying, laws copy and pasted by five year olds don’t work out as expected.

Well crap. I didn't really want an MP5 before, but now if I can keep it as a pistol.
 
anyone understand the new under 21 restrictions and how it relates to youth shooting?

I get that my 13 year old can't hunt with his semiauto 20G shotgun anymore but can he shoot it and a 15-22 at the range in MA?

GOAL's summary has this statement...
An FID card holder is banned from possessing a semi-automatic outside of an officially incorporated club or licensed range. Must be under the supervision of an LTC holder.

Obviously my 13 year old doesn't have a FID but does it still apply? Can my kids still plink their 22?
What about in 18 months when he gets his FID?

OH yeah and obviously f*** this shit.. I shouldn't have to ask these questions.
 
Under current law if you are under 50oz as originally manufactured (w/o mag) then yes. the additional foregrip on the various devices like the flux all are a problem under the new law, so get what you want grandfathered if you are going that route.
Interesting. So having a dated receipt for brace installed on an under 50oz pistol prior to 10/23 would be technically gtg?
 
Satirical commentary follows - do not attempt, especially in Mass.


Someone will market a 75% Lower eventually.

And if not, dig up @Boris's article on casting lowers with plastics. It works well and the unit cost is like $0.10 each... Which is actually good because they won't last more than a few hundred or couple thousand rounds.

Pro Tip, take the mold from a serialized lower so all your lowers will match! (especially do not do this one)
76% Bridge frame P80s are still available.
 
Satirical commentary follows - do not attempt, especially in Mass.


Someone will market a 75% Lower eventually.

And if not, dig up @Boris's article on casting lowers with plastics. It works well and the unit cost is like $0.10 each... Which is actually good because they won't last more than a few hundred or couple thousand rounds.

Pro Tip, take the mold from a serialized lower so all your lowers will match! (especially do not do this one)
Behave and don't take this thread down a classic Pipes rabbit hole of chaos. Read the first @drgrant post in this thread. You have been warned, Mr Chaos.
 
Dang,look like I can not buy old ammo from people's and shoot it all up, it was fun.

The new law attempts to track every round of ammo that moves between parties. Obviously they dont know what you own because you may have shot it. But they want all ammo recorded in the new Super Mircs and all point of sales or FTF to use the system to record the movement of ammo. So even a gift of ammo, like a gift of a gun constitutes a transfer.

How the hell is this actually enforced is beyond my ability to comprehend short of installing cameras in every home and other private and public spaces ala 1984. But that is what the law does.
@CrackPot

I now live in NH. I have a lot of ammo that I will want to sell off, preferably to those behind the Healey Wall.

Under this new draconian law, can I privately sell it to MA residents if they meet me in NH? No paperwork/registration/etc.?

Will this only be possible prior to 10/23/24? Or will this be possible after that date as well?

Thanks for shedding some light on all these problem areas.
Len
 
@CrackPot

I now live in NH. I have a lot of ammo that I will want to sell off, preferably to those behind the Healey Wall.

Under this new draconian law, can I privately sell it to MA residents if they meet me in NH? No paperwork/registration/etc.?

Will this only be possible prior to 10/23/24? Or will this be possible after that date as well?

Thanks for shedding some light on all these problem areas.
Len
Yes. But I have to look after 10/23 if the resident needs to register when they bring it in.
 
No. If they had a pistol grip it would be an assault weapon. But just the 7rd tube alone is a felony. It’s a LCFD. The confusion arises because a 7rd tube on a pump is legal. It’s the why that matters. The definition of large capacity weapon excludes pump, lever and bolt guns. How can you charge someone with a LCFD when the LCFD is permanently attached to a non LCW? So pumps are ok. People don’t know the way and think semis are ok. They are not. Straight up illegal possession of a large capacity feeding device.

This remains true in the new law.

The new law seems to go a step further and criminalizes the possession of the bare tube - no caps or springs or installation even needed. Maybe I'm reading it wrong though.
 
The new law seems to go a step further and criminalizes the possession of the bare tube - no caps or springs or installation even needed. Maybe I'm reading it wrong though.
The old law technically made the 7rd tube illegal also. This is not really new. People are just waking up to the fact that everyone was confused about semi-auto shotguns.
 
The new law attempts to track every round of ammo that moves between parties. Obviously they dont know what you own because you may have shot it. But they want all ammo recorded in the new Super Mircs and all point of sales or FTF to use the system to record the movement of ammo. So even a gift of ammo, like a gift of a gun constitutes a transfer.

How the hell is this actually enforced is beyond my ability to comprehend short of installing cameras in every home and other private and public spaces ala 1984. But that is what the law does.
Maybe asked already but would reloading components be affected?
 
Maybe asked already but would reloading components be affected?
The requirement to register/record all ammunition sales will effect reloading components. The definition of "Ammunition" is unchanged so includes cases, primers, bullets, and powder.

Excellent question and not one I had looked at before you asked.
 
The requirement to register/record all ammunition sales will effect reloading components. The definition of "Ammunition" is unchanged so includes cases, primers, bullets, and powder.

Excellent question and not one I had looked at before you asked.
lol I was afraid that was going to be the answer, thanks.

BTW, a couple years back when I bought my 1301 from you and I mentioned about putting a mag extension on it you cut me off and said "just don't do it!" I never did but finally understand why.
 
I guess I mean if it’s ok to prevent going (cough) afoul of fed laws we can use a stick to prevent having 4 in the (shot) gun, why would limiting our mags with something similar to prevent going against state laws?

If I neuter a 30 to a 10 (like they do with the m&p 15-22 mags it should be ok.

Just clarifying
As long as the mod is not readily reversed it should be fine.
But dropping a restriction block in an otherwise standard magazine wouldn't pass a not readily restored test.
 
The requirement to register/record all ammunition sales will effect reloading components. The definition of "Ammunition" is unchanged so includes cases, primers, bullets, and powder.

Excellent question and not one I had looked at before you asked.

Anyone looking to get into bullet casting.
 
I copied @CrackPot 's post here, to separate it from that other pile of shit.

Kids lets try to keep this as clean/OT as possible, other whining etc can go in the dumpster in GD.

I want this to be able to live here so:

A- @CrackPot can update it as he figures stuff out/sees fit (and its not in a sea of like curdled milk schmoo)
B- people can actually comment in relation to HIS POST - and not just generic 4883 whining.
C- People can use it as a reference thats not going to just diappear (this has happened once already and I was basically punching the walls).
lol, lock and sticky plz
 
re: Shotgun

Referring to current law, by the language in Section 121, a semi-auto shotgun that cannot hold more than 5 rounds in a magazine is NOT an assault weapon. That is not the same as saying a semi-auto shotgun with a magazine capacity in excess of 5 is an assault weapon.


''Assault weapon'', shall have the same meaning as a semiautomatic assault weapon as defined in the federal Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act, 18 U.S.C. section 921(a)(30) as appearing in such section on September 13, 1994, and shall include, but not be limited to, any of the weapons, or copies or duplicates of the weapons, of any caliber, known as: (i) Avtomat Kalashnikov (AK) (all models); (ii) Action Arms Israeli Military Industries UZI and Galil; (iii) Beretta Ar70 (SC–70); (iv) Colt AR–15; (v) Fabrique National FN/FAL, FN/LAR and FNC; (vi) SWD M–10, M–11, M–11/9 and M–12; (vi) Steyr AUG; (vii) INTRATEC TEC–9, TEC–DC9 and TEC–22; and (viii) revolving cylinder shotguns, such as, or similar to, the Street Sweeper and Striker 12; provided, however, that the term assault weapon shall not include: (i) any of the weapons, or replicas or duplicates of such weapons, specified in appendix A to 18 U.S.C. section 922 as appearing in such appendix on September 13, 1994, as such weapons were manufactured on October 1, 1993; (ii) any weapon that is operated by manual bolt, pump, lever or slide action; (iii) any weapon that has been rendered permanently inoperable or otherwise rendered permanently unable to be designated a semiautomatic assault weapon; (iv) any weapon that was manufactured prior to the year 1899; (v) any weapon that is an antique or relic, theatrical prop or other weapon that is not capable of firing a projectile and which is not intended for use as a functional weapon and cannot be readily modified through a combination of available parts into an operable assault weapon; (vi) any semiautomatic rifle that cannot accept a detachable magazine that holds more than five rounds of ammunition; or (vii) any semiautomatic shotgun that cannot hold more than five rounds of ammunition in a fixed or detachable magazine.

=================

The "features test" defines what it takes for semi-auto shotgun to meet the definition of "assault weapon"


Referring to 18 U.S.C. section 921(a) (30) as appearing in such section on September 13, 1994:

(D) a semiautomatic shotgun that has at least 2 of—

(i) a folding or telescoping stock;
(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;
(iii) a fixed magazine capacity in excess of 5 rounds; and
(iv) an ability to accept a detachable magazine.
 
Pardon the new thread. The main thread is cluttered and putting this in one clean post as a summary I am hoping is helpful. I don’t believe in Healey and I think GOAL has its head up it’s ass on a number of issues and this reflects that



Practical implications of H4885 for purchasing and possessing

A billion “but what about me?” questions in the main thread so I figure giving a single post describing what to buy when might help.


The new law was signed on 7/25/24 according to the press release. It was done so without an emergency preamble. This means NOTHING CHANGES until it goes into effect on 10/23/24. All current laws are in effect unchanged until 10/23/24.

You can buy anything currently legal. This means any/all off roster handguns via frame transfer. This means any/all semi auto rifles or shotguns with compliance done. This means any/all frames or receivers of potential assault-style weapons. You can do this until 10/23/24.

BUT only items possessed lawfully ON (not before, on) 8/1/24 are grandfathered from being unlawful ASWs once the new law takes effect. So while you can continue to purchase AR lowers, for example, through 10/23/24, only ones lawfully possessed on 8/1/24 will continue to be legal.


So there is no rush to buy right now EXCEPT that which will be an ASW once the new law goes into effect. The rush to buy is all the ARs and similar evil semi auto rifles and shotguns that you need to get by 8/1 to be grandfathered. So buy these by midnight on Thursday 8/1. Regular off roster handguns or non CMR compliant handguns like glocks or most CZs, etc you can skip buying for now and get anytime before 10/23/24.



Now, what about all the cool stuff I now own that I need to be grandfathered. Do I register my lowers? What do I need to do? The short answer is NOTHING. The law says you need to lawfully possess on 8/1. It also says it must be registered in accordance with 121B and serialized in accordance with 121C.

121B is the NEW state wide database where every gun in the state must be registered. The state has one year to implement. Once implemented every transaction must be validated in the system and the gun registered to the new owner and unregistered from the old owner. Everyone will have another year to register everything they currently own. You will need to register what you have before you can transact it to sell if you sell before the one year and have not yet registered it. This is 121B.

You cannot register anything today to satisfy this requirement. Today we have a database of transactions, not a database of registered guns and owners. YOU DO NOT NEED TO “REGISTER” BEFORE 8/2 to be in compliance with the new law or prove anything. The fact that you recorded a transaction in the current system PROVES nothing.

You can/should follow the current law. If you “purchase or obtain” a firearm, rifle or shotgun from other than a Ma dealer, LTC holder or fid holder, then record the transaction within seven days of “purchasing or obtaining”. Do this to be legal with today’s law, not because it is in anyway needed for the new law. It does nothing relative to the new law and the future 121B which might not take effect until late 2025.

For the state to successfully charge you with a violation of the new 131M ASW violation, the burden of proof is on them to prove that the firearm was NOT lawfully possessed by a MA dealer or LTC holder on 8/1/24. Prove a negative. Good luck. In practice they run a trace request with the ATF. It will show when manufactured, when sold to the distributor, when sold to the dealer and when the 4473 transferred it to a person. If it was manufactured after 8/1/24 then you are in trouble. But if they can’t prove it could have been in the state lawfully on 8/1, they are done. In most cases there will be a 4473 showing you bought it on or before 8/1 because you did. In summary if you lawfully own it on 8/1, you are good.

Some other things go bump on 10/23/24. If you have only a FID anything semi auto you own is now illegal for you to have. This is the single biggest taking in the new law and should be an easy challenge in court. But assuming no court action, all FID holders must get rid of their semi auto guns before 10/23/24. Yup, you are getting screwed. This also hits all the FUDDs with FIDs with Ruger mini 14s and 10/22s.

On 10/23 dealers will longer be able to sell ANYTHING not on the roster. This includes all rifles, shotguns, machine guns, frames, and receivers. Yup, when it takes effect we can sell on roster handguns and nothing else. Until they add each and every possible bolt gun, pump shot gun, lever rifle, etc, we cannot sell them even though they are perfectly legal to have. Another major insanity of the new law ans kikely a mistake. They made all firearms subject to the roster in 123 (o). This was the same in the old law when a “firearm” was a not rifle or shotgun. Not a firearm is a pistol, rifle, shotgun, machine gun etc. Failing to change this language took out all sales except what is on the current handgun roster. Another easy court challenge but these take time.

So it you need a nice new shotgun to hunt this year, get it before 10/23 since dealers can no longer sell you anything.

Summary

Buy ARs and related future evil guns before 8/2. Follow the current law. Don’t “register” stuff because you think it is required or helps with the new law.

Buy everything else you want before 10/23 because dealers won’t be able to sell anything after that except boring on roster handguns.

Write letters to your state senator and rep asking why they banned you from buying a new pump shotgun for hunting turkeys this year.

FID holders get rid of all your semi auto long guns before 10/23



Side note. What about Healey and 7/20/2016. This is a red hearing. If the gun is lawful now it’s still lawful. If you think the press conference on 7/20/16 made things magically illegal, then ok, they are illegal. Otherwise the language in the new law just makes pre 7/20/16 guns that you owned and registered (side not saying registered here in the new law is impossible since we don’t have registration proving that they don’t even understand the laws we have) BEFORE 7/20/16 NOT a copy or duplicate. They are still subject to the feature test which they will fail so all grandfathering comes from the 8/1 language in 131M. And it says BEFORE. All the guns people rushed to buy ON 7/20/16 don’t count. Ha. Stupid.

It adds up to a nothing burger. If it’s legal on 8/1 it’s still legal after the new law. The Healey language changes nothing. Maybe it makes your gun MORE legal, but I can’t come up with an actual example that it impacts. Healey sycophants like Jason Guida says it proves Healey was right and all post 2016 are illegal. Bah.
thank you for spending your time to post this, much appreciated
 
The requirement to register/record all ammunition sales will effect reloading components. The definition of "Ammunition" is unchanged so includes cases, primers, bullets, and powder.

Excellent question and not one I had looked at before you asked.

Wow, I hadn't read that part carefully.

§123(h)(i) actually says,

"the complete description of the firearm and ammunition transferred, including the make, serial number, type of firearm and designation as a large capacity firearm, if applicable;"

I wonder what "complete description of the ammunition" even means. Caliber and quantity? Manufacturer's model number? Lot code? Bullet weight?

That's going to make ammo sales by dealers... not impossible, but maybe so cumbersome it's not practical.

I'm not sure how recording "1,000 CCI 500 primers" or "1lb Alliant Power Pistol" is any harder to record than "500 rounds CCI Blazer 115gr 9mm"

The real problem here is requirement to record the sale of ammo AT ALL.
 
re: Shotgun

Referring to current law, by the language in Section 121, a semi-auto shotgun that cannot hold more than 5 rounds in a magazine is NOT an assault weapon. That is not the same as saying a semi-auto shotgun with a magazine capacity in excess of 5 is an assault weapon.


''Assault weapon'', shall have the same meaning as a semiautomatic assault weapon as defined in the federal Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act, 18 U.S.C. section 921(a)(30) as appearing in such section on September 13, 1994, and shall include, but not be limited to, any of the weapons, or copies or duplicates of the weapons, of any caliber, known as: (i) Avtomat Kalashnikov (AK) (all models); (ii) Action Arms Israeli Military Industries UZI and Galil; (iii) Beretta Ar70 (SC–70); (iv) Colt AR–15; (v) Fabrique National FN/FAL, FN/LAR and FNC; (vi) SWD M–10, M–11, M–11/9 and M–12; (vi) Steyr AUG; (vii) INTRATEC TEC–9, TEC–DC9 and TEC–22; and (viii) revolving cylinder shotguns, such as, or similar to, the Street Sweeper and Striker 12; provided, however, that the term assault weapon shall not include: (i) any of the weapons, or replicas or duplicates of such weapons, specified in appendix A to 18 U.S.C. section 922 as appearing in such appendix on September 13, 1994, as such weapons were manufactured on October 1, 1993; (ii) any weapon that is operated by manual bolt, pump, lever or slide action; (iii) any weapon that has been rendered permanently inoperable or otherwise rendered permanently unable to be designated a semiautomatic assault weapon; (iv) any weapon that was manufactured prior to the year 1899; (v) any weapon that is an antique or relic, theatrical prop or other weapon that is not capable of firing a projectile and which is not intended for use as a functional weapon and cannot be readily modified through a combination of available parts into an operable assault weapon; (vi) any semiautomatic rifle that cannot accept a detachable magazine that holds more than five rounds of ammunition; or (vii) any semiautomatic shotgun that cannot hold more than five rounds of ammunition in a fixed or detachable magazine.

=================

The "features test" defines what it takes for semi-auto shotgun to meet the definition of "assault weapon"


Referring to 18 U.S.C. section 921(a) (30) as appearing in such section on September 13, 1994:

(D) a semiautomatic shotgun that has at least 2 of—

(i) a folding or telescoping stock;
(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;
(iii) a fixed magazine capacity in excess of 5 rounds; and
(iv) an ability to accept a detachable magazine.

Thats how I read it, no pistol grip/stock, tube mag and I can have more than 5...
 
The new law attempts to track every round of ammo that moves between parties.
Between parties…. However for personal use, purchases online still appear to be GTG?

My reading is that the ammo tracking only applies to dealers, not individuals.

128A(b) says it's legal for an LTC or FID holder to sell ammo to another LTC or FID holder, with no recording requirements.

Interestingly, (more bad writing) 128A(c)(ii) says an heir can only sell four ammunitions per year. ??
 
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