Practical Implications of H4885 for Purchasing and Possessing

[milktree]

It really is f***ing written that way?

Yes:

§127A(c) An heir or devisee upon the death of a firearm or ammunition owner, a person in the military, police officers and other peace officers, a veteran’s organization and historical society, museums and institutional collections open to the public may:

(i) sell or transfer firearms and ammunition therefor, to a federally licensed firearms dealer, or a federal, state or local historical society, museum or institutional collection open to the public; and

(ii) sell or transfer no more than 4 firearms and ammunition therefor per calendar year to:

There's more to it, in that an heir with an LTC can do all the LTC stuff too, but that's the way it's written.

 

[not new guy]

Yes:



There's more to it, in that an heir with an LTC can do all the LTC stuff too, but that's the way it's written.

Nah, that seems to say ammo to go along with the transferred guns. Read "ammunition therefor" as if it's a parenthetical, or separated by commas.

 

[Jenska22]

Yes. But I have to look after 10/23 if the resident needs to register when they bring it in.

if ammo changes hands in the woods, but no one is there to hear it, did it actually change hands?

 

[Jenska22]

Anyone looking to get into bullet casting.

they are now

 

[Mwz60]

if ammo changes hands in the woods, but no one is there to hear it, did it actually change hands?

This !!!

 

[milktree]

if ammo changes hands in the woods, but no one is there to hear it, did it actually change hands?

Before you get worked up about this, remember that the new law allows LTC and FID holders to sell/give/transfer ammo to other FID or LTC holders without limitation. This is actually an improvement (one of two things) in this bill that are better than before. The current law says you must be licensed to sell ammo to sell ammo.

The other good thing is that it formally says a locked glove box counts as a "locked container". Previous case law said it wasn't.

 

[1903Collector]

So, if I go to Shooting Supply, grab a couple boxes of bullets, they gotta report that.
Order some cases from Larry, He gotta report that.
Order some powder from the Valley, they gotta report that.

How the f*** is that gonna work outside of vendors saying "sorry, no more shipping to MA"

 

[milktree]

So, if I go to Shooting Supply, grab a couple boxes of bullets, they gotta report that.
Order some cases from Larry, He gotta report that.
Order some powder from the Valley, they gotta report that.

How the f*** is that gonna work outside of vendors saying "sorry, no more shipping to MA"

Mass. laws do not apply to vendors outside of Mass. The transaction happens at their location, and the sale is complete as soon as it goes on the FedEx/UPS/USPS truck.

So, Mass. dealers have to do a bunch of stupid shit, but mail order hasn't changed.

 

[pastera]

It really is f***ing written that way?

(ii) sell or transfer no more than 4 firearms and ammunition therefor per calendar year to:
(A) a person with a license to carry under section 131;
(B) an exempted person under section129C; or
(C) a person with a firearm identification card under section 129B; provided, however, that for transfers and purchases of firearms that are not rifles and shotguns that are not large capacity or semi-automatic, the transferee shall have a valid permit to purchase under section 131A.

It's dumber than that - it relates the ammunition to what is used in a gun that is transferred.

While they may not enforce 3 rounds of ammunition and a gun as a limit, one could make that argument.

 

[Luckydad3]

Thank you for starting this new thread, super helpful!

So if I legally own a AR rifle or a MP5/clone before 8/1. Can I still legally SBR it? Only before 10/23? After?

What if the rifle is a preban? Pre-Healy?

Thanks!

 

[CrackPot]

My reading is that the ammo tracking only applies to dealers, not individuals.

128A(b) says it's legal for an LTC or FID holder to sell ammo to another LTC or FID holder, with no recording requirements.

Interestingly, (more bad writing) 128A(c)(ii) says an heir can only sell four ammunitions per year. ??

Correct. Selling ammo as a private party is lawful but counts as one of your four transfers.

 

[CrackPot]

Thank you for starting this new thread, super helpful!

So if I legally own a AR rifle or a MP5/clone before 8/1. Can I still legally SBR it? Only before 10/23? After?

What if the rifle is a preban? Pre-Healy?

Thanks!

Under MA law there are no restrictions on your 8/1 object. We have to wait to see how the ATF handles this. Time will tell

 

[milktree]

Correct. Selling ammo as a private party is lawful but counts as one of your four transfers.

Read it again: I'm pretty sure I'm right about this:

128A(b) A person with a license to carry under section 131 may sell or transfer firearms and ammunition therefor and a person with a firearm identification card under section 129B may sell or transfer rifles and shotguns that are not large capacity or semi-automatic and ammunition therefor to the following; provided, however, that no more than 4 firearm transfers shall occur per calendar year:

128A(b) explicitly says "firearm transfers", nothing about a limit on ammunition.

Is the restriction somewhere else?

 

[pastera]

Correct. Selling ammo as a private party is lawful but counts as one of your four transfers.

Only under the inheritance as far as I can see.

1111 (b) A person with a license to carry under section 131 may sell or transfer firearms and ammunition therefor and a person with a firearm identification card under section 129B may sell or transfer rifles and shotguns that are not large capacity or semi-automatic and ammunition therefor to the following; provided, however, that no more than 4 firearm transfers shall occur per calendar year:

 

[wcorey]

Thats how I read it, no pistol grip/stock, tube mag and I can have more than 5...

I believe the issue is that semi auto with a 7 rd tube is a LCFD…

 

[chris_1001]

I believe the issue is that semi auto with a 7 rd tube is a LCFD…

it was argued that since the tube is removable and cannot hold rounds on it own its not a LCFD.

I'm honestly confused by all this.

And what if you use mini shells, now 5 = 7-8 rounds...

 

[CrackPot]

Read it again: I'm pretty sure I'm right about this:



128A(b) explicitly says "firearm transfers", nothing about a limit on ammunition.

Is the restriction somewhere else?

I will need to go find it again. When I have a few more brain cycles I will locate it. They tacked on the word ammunition in a lot of places...

 

[CrackPot]

Read it again: I'm pretty sure I'm right about this:



128A(b) explicitly says "firearm transfers", nothing about a limit on ammunition.

Is the restriction somewhere else?

You are correct on LTC/FID holders. The place they count ammunition sales against the four per year is for the heir or devisee upon death of a firearm or ammo owner. This is limited to no more than 4 firearms or ammunition per calendar year. 128A(c)(ii).

Thanks for the correction

 

[wcorey]

it was argued that since the tube is removable and cannot hold rounds on it own its not a LCFD.

I'm honestly confused by all this.

And what if you use mini shells, now 5 = 7-8 rounds...

It has yet to be argued in a court of law though, were it really counts.
Yet another thing where ya make yer choices and take yer chances…

I hate to admit it but I think it’s NJ law that makes a least a bit more sense where you can have a standard capacity feeding device but can’t put more rounds in it than the law states.

 

[not new guy]

You are correct on LTC/FID holders. The place they count ammunition sales against the four per year is for the heir or devisee upon death of a firearm or ammo owner. This is limited to no more than 4 firearms or ammunition per calendar year. 128A(c)(ii).

Thanks for the correction

And I think it's ammunition "therefor," which means whatever ammo goes with the gun and not "4 ammunitions."

 

[pastera]

We need to come up with


And I think it's ammunition "therefor," which means whatever ammo goes with the gun and not "4 ammunitions."

Reading it plainly the therefor refers the ammunition back to the firearm the same as it is done in the FID section (can't buy ammunition for extra killy guns you can't own - but you can get single shots in any caliber)

So if an executor wants to sell off a collection, they can only sell 4 privately and only sell the ammo in the same transaction as a gun that fires it (unless the executor has an LTC)

The whole thing is to make gun ownership to stressful that people just turn them in.

 

[HorizontalHunter]

The whole thing is to make gun ownership to stressful that people just turn them in.

Which, as we know, is the point

 

[dcmdon]

Can a post-94 ban configured firearm, lets use an AR as an example, owned before 8/1/24, be reconfigured with "pre-ban" features.

Since it's already an ASW, because of copy, feature count, and possibly name, adding more features won't make it "more of " an ASW.

Correct?

 

[DJBrad]

Can a post-94 ban configured firearm, lets use an AR as an example, owned before 8/1/24, be reconfigured with "pre-ban" features.

Since it's already an ASW, because of copy, feature count, and possibly name, adding more features won't make it "more of " an ASW.

Correct?

On page 1

The lower is lawfully possessed so by definition it is not an assault style weapon. When you build it do you need to follow any old rules assuming you build after 10/22/24? The way the law is written, anything lawfully possessed on 8/1 whether a pre94 or a brand new lower is grandfathered. This says build as you like.

The primary lawyer I speak to is aligned with that interpretation but none of us think acting on it is without risk here in MA

 

[Darkslide]

Time to unpin them stocks and throw away those muzzle brakes!

 

[rogersmithiii]

If all ammo transactions need to be reported, I think I’m going to start buying ammo by the round. 1000 rounds of 9 generates 1000 entire into the database.

 

[inerlogic]

Can a post-94 ban configured firearm, lets use an AR as an example, owned before 8/1/24, be reconfigured with "pre-ban" features.

Since it's already an ASW, because of copy, feature count, and possibly name, adding more features won't make it "more of " an ASW.

Correct?

That's the way I read it, hell, in her letter she said they were all illegal and compliance work didn't matter.... that was our cue to unpin....

 

[milktree]

If all ammo transactions need to be reported, I think I’m going to start buying ammo by the round. 1000 rounds of 9 generates 1000 entire into the database.

Cute, but you would be putting that burden of reporting on the FFL, not on yourself.

 

[FancyGunz]

@CrackPot your entire argument rests on the interpretation that 121B refers to the NEW state database that has not been created yet, correct?

"The department of criminal justice information services shall develop and maintain a real time electronic firearms registration system."
"...shall not apply to an assault-style firearm lawfully possessed within the commonwealth on August 1, 2024...provided, that the assault-style firearm shall be registered in accordance with section 121B and serialized in accordance with section 121C."

I honestly can't tell from reading the bill which way it could be interpreted. Both GOAL and Guida (lol) have interpreted that this is likely referring to the existing EFA10 portal, or at least that's what a court would likely find. You are saying it refers to a new registry that hasn't been created yet. Meanwhile gun stores are literally handing out Guida quote screenshots and telling people to register.

So, if you register a lower now, you are potentially in violation of Maura's 2016 edict (which Guida says has the force of law) and get in trouble for that. If you don't register now, you are potentially in violation of the 8/1 rule and at best, can't transfer the firearm in the future, and at worst, get in trouble for that.

Is this the situation we're in now?

 

[LakeTrout]

How the f*** is that gonna work outside of vendors saying "sorry, no more shipping to MA"

I think you answered your own question.