Practical Implications of H4885 for Purchasing and Possessing

[milktree]

If wearing a condom and keeping the sheets between you and the misses as extra added protection, then maybe.

Yea, yea.

You're having this discussion because there's ambiguity. The way the law is written (and I don't mean "interpreted" or "enforced") that handguard could be two features, making it an ASF. And adding a feature like an angled hand stop could also be considered a "forward grip" by an enthusiastic prosecutor.

I don't think any of that crap is likely to get enforced as a primary violation, but I'd bet if you get caught up by something else they'll add it on as an ASF violation. (because state's gunna state)

 

[Coyote33]

OK, can a Kahr CM9 be transferred into Massachusetts? Called one dealer today, and he said only the PM9, which is very similar. Can anyone else verify this? What is the process for adding models to this roster/list?
Thank you.

 

[milktree]

OK, can a Kahr CM9 be transferred into Massachusetts? Called one dealer today, and he said only the PM9, which is very similar. Can anyone else verify this? What is the process for adding models to this roster/list?
Thank you.

Why do you want the CM9 over the PM9? Near as I can tell, the only difference between the two is that the CM9 has a 0.1" shorter barrel.

 

[Coyote33]

Why do you want the CM9 over the PM9? Near as I can tell, the only difference between the two is that the CM9 has a 0.1" shorter barrel.

Availability. I came across a deal on a CM9 recently, but have not seen any deals on used PM9's.

 

[alan226]

But it does...
The federal government considers a suppressor a firearm.
Mass considers them a "instrument, attachment, weapon or appliance"
Heller gives two open ended definitions but it is clear that anything that can further self defense, being core to the 2nd, is prima facie protected.

It would be very hard for the state to argue that sights or optics could be categorically banned since they are for many firearms simply an attachment the bearer uses to make a firearm more accurate and therefore more deadly to the intended target.

But Canjura is yet a newborn so let's get a few easy to win cases won using it before we move on to a more complex interpretation.

You seem to have a grasp on this bill.

Couldn't the state banning me from selling pre-ban magazines constitute a "taking", ie. the inability to sell those magazines to whoever I want at the highest price?

 

[pastera]

You seem to have a grasp on this bill.

Couldn't the state banning me from selling pre-ban magazines constitute a "taking", ie. the inability to sell those magazines to whoever I want at the highest price?

While it seems as it would there is wiggle room.
It is 100% possible for you to sell your magazines even to a Mass resident.
You simply cannot complete the sale and transfer within the state.
And the buyer cannot legally import the magazine back into Mass.
They are relying on us to simply ignore the taking problem in favor of the bigger and more generalized question of do >10 round magazines enjoy protection (an easy question to argue under Canjura)

 

[Cap'n Mike]

Has anyone read anything in H4885 that prohibits vendors from shipping non FFL AR-15 parts to Mass?

Not lowers or even 80% lowers, I’m asking about parts like a front pin adapter?

I vaguely remember some of the proposals suggested this kind of ban, put Im unsure if that crap made it into the final bill.

I am aware of some places like PSA that choose not to ship things here, but I have run into a few places that claim there is some law like Washington States ban that makes it unlawful to ship parts here.

 

[chris_1001]

While it seems as it would there is wiggle room.
It is 100% possible for you to sell your magazines even to a Mass resident.
You simply cannot complete the sale and transfer within the state.
And the buyer cannot legally import the magazine back into Mass.
They are relying on us to simply ignore the taking problem in favor of the bigger and more generalized question of do >10 round magazines enjoy protection (an easy question to argue under Canjura)

Here's a possibly dumb question, say I take my pre ban mags to NH for a Match, when I drive back to MA, am I transporting or importing... I know there IS a difference, but per the new BS law, it could end bad without some proof of ownership. or just a cop looking or jam someone up.

Thoughts?

 

[DJBrad]

Has anyone read anything in H4885 that prohibits vendors from shipping non FFL AR-15 parts to Mass?

Not lowers or even 80% lowers, I’m asking about parts like a front pin adapter?

I vaguely remember some of the proposals suggested this kind of ban, put Im unsure if that crap made it into the final bill.

I am aware of some places like PSA that choose not to ship things here, but I have run into a few places that claim there is some law like Washington States ban that makes it unlawful to ship parts here.

Nope.

 

[pastera]

Has anyone read anything in H4885 that prohibits vendors from shipping non FFL AR-15 parts to Mass?

Not lowers or even 80% lowers, I’m asking about parts like a front pin adapter?

I vaguely remember some of the proposals suggested this kind of ban, put Im unsure if that crap made it into the final bill.

I am aware of some places like PSA that choose not to ship things here, but I have run into a few places that claim there is some law like Washington States ban that makes it unlawful to ship parts here.

The only non-ffl part that is banned is unfinished receivers (80%'s)

Vendors that won't ship simply don't want to deal with the BS

 

[Cap'n Mike]

The only non-ffl part that is banned is unfinished receivers (80%'s)

Vendors that won't ship simply don't want to deal with the BS

I have run into the same thing with 3 different small companies. They are getting bad advice from someone.

“
I really don’t have anyone for you to talk to, sorry.. But I was advised through a very large company that we buy from. That there are a lot of tricky laws regarding AR parts.

They are who I always ask questions from if I need advice on what to ship and not to ship in certain states.

They wouldn’t tell me who the company was.

 

[milktree]

Here's a possibly dumb question, say I take my pre ban mags to NH for a Match, when I drive back to MA, am I transporting or importing... I know there IS a difference, but per the new BS law, it could end bad without some proof of ownership. or just a cop looking or jam someone up.

Thoughts?

Using any other item the answer would be "transporting", so it's transporting.

e.g.: You drive to Canada in your car you bought in the US. When you drive home, you are absolutely not "importing a car"

 

[pastera]

Using any other item the answer would be "transporting", so it's transporting.

e.g.: You drive to Canada in your car you bought in the US. When you drive home, you are absolutely not "importing a car"

If you purchased it in Canada then you are importing

You cannot transfer a LCFD within Mass so you go to NH to sell it.
The buyer has purchased the magazine in NH and imports the device back into Mass upon return.

 

[not new guy]

If wearing a condom and keeping the sheets between you and the misses as extra added protection, then maybe.

The sheets with the hole in them though, right?

 

[alan226]

While it seems as it would there is wiggle room.
It is 100% possible for you to sell your magazines even to a Mass resident.
You simply cannot complete the sale and transfer within the state.
And the buyer cannot legally import the magazine back into Mass.
They are relying on us to simply ignore the taking problem in favor of the bigger and more generalized question of do >10 round magazines enjoy protection (an easy question to argue under Canjura)

Very little wiggle room where either the buyer or the seller is breaking the law depending on where the transaction takes place...

 

[CrackPot]

If you purchased it in Canada then you are importing

You cannot transfer a LCFD within Mass so you go to NH to sell it.
The buyer has purchased the magazine in NH and imports the device back into Mass upon return.

Which is a direct violation of chap 140 sec 131M. But hard to prove.

Or you can take the nice preban mag and block it down to 10rds. Sell/transfer/import, whatever. The new owner can unblock the mag. I cannot find a way that this breaks any of the new language.

Or you can nut up and do whatever you want because there exists no practical method short of self reporting to get someone for the transfer of a pre-ban mag.

 

[milktree]

If you purchased it in Canada then you are importing

Right. But in my example the car was purchased in the US, and is therefore directly applicable to @chris_1001's question about taking his existing pre-ban magazines to NH and bringing them back.

You cannot transfer a LCFD within Mass so you go to NH to sell it.
The buyer has purchased the magazine in NH and imports the device back into Mass upon return.

None of that is related to what @chris_1001 asked.

 

[milktree]

Which is a direct violation of chap 140 sec 131M. But hard to prove.

Not if the transfer happened...

§131M(c) (iv) at a licensed firing range or sports shooting competition venue;...

because

§131M(c) Subsection (a) shall not apply to large capacity feeding devices lawfully possessed on September 13, 1994 only if such possession is:
...
(iv) at a licensed firing range...

Or you can take the nice preban mag and block it down to 10rds. Sell/transfer/import, whatever. The new owner can unblock the mag. I cannot find a way that this breaks any of the new language.

A particularly vindictive prosecutor might argue that if it was possible to unblock the mag, it wasn't blocked properly, and therefore still a LCFD. But a lot has to go wrong to get to that point.

Or you can nut up and do whatever you want because there exists no practical method short of self reporting to get someone for the transfer of a pre-ban mag.

There's the unlikely edge case where a buyer who got their LTC after 10/2 is caught with a pre-ban un-blocked magazine and they tell the state where they got it.

 

[chris_1001]

Right. But in my example the car was purchased in the US, and is therefore directly applicable to @chris_1001's question about taking his existing pre-ban magazines to NH and bringing them back.



None of that is related to what @chris_1001 asked.

I'm still a bit fuzzy on the possible answer to my question, I know I'm not "importing" BUT... lets take this step by step..

I take my legal mag, unloaded and locked up to NH to use, enjoy my day, unload it and lock it up...

Driving home I roll the car over just over the NH/MA line... my locked mag container gets tossed from my car and busts open... the mag now on the road and is now visible to the cop... (yes I'm being dramatic to prevent NES from asking how did the cop find out)... He knows I just crossed into MA by a car length...

Since one of the ways to dispose of a pre-ban mag is to sell/move it out of state, so since it crossed the NH boarder, would a (doushe bag) prosecutor argue that if it leaves MA its not allowed back, and even thought it is mine, I just re-imported a mag...?

Or that ANY mag crossing the boarder is importing as there is no way to know that I owned it prior to that day.

Just wondering out loud.

 

[pastera]

Right. But in my example the car was purchased in the US, and is therefore directly applicable to @chris_1001's question about taking his existing pre-ban magazines to NH and bringing them back.



None of that is related to what @chris_1001 asked.

If you take your LCFD put of state and come back that's perfectly legal
But if you were questioned, how do you prove that you were not actually importing.
In the end, you aren't getting questioned unless the police are already charging you with a shit ton of other shit.

 

[milktree]

If you take your LCFD put of state and come back that's perfectly legal

That's the question @chris_1001 was asking.

But if you were questioned, how do you prove that you were not actually importing.

You couldn't. But they couldn't prove you were, either.

Unless the state's position is that no LCFDs can enter the state, under any circumstances, even if you had just taken them out of state and are bringing them back. It would be a bizarre usage of "import", but it doesn't mean some jackhole won't take that position.

 

[pastera]

That's the question @chris_1001 was asking.




You couldn't. But they couldn't prove you were, either.

Unless the state's position is that no LCFDs can enter the state, under any circumstances, even if you had just taken them out of state and are bringing them back. It would be a bizarre usage of "import", but it doesn't mean some jackhole won't take that position.

Definition: import from 16 USC § 1532(10) | LII / Legal Information Institute

What Mass can get get away with has little to do with what they might do to you in the interim.
If Mass decides that exiting Mass with an LCFD constitutes export from Mass then it follows that re-entry would also be considered import.

All of this is conjecture and if Mass does go after an otherwise lawful gun owner for re-entry with a pre-ban mag Mass will lose without question. The problem is the persecution suffered in the process.

 

[Coyote33]

Definition: infringe

 

[pastera]

Definition: infringe

View attachment 933731

Until a jury's options include aquittal with restitution the state has little reason to clean up it's act.

I think a jury should have a 'malicious prosecution' finding available where the government entity must pay restitution to the defendant with a very high bar for reversal on appeal.

And cases where the state was found to have violated civil rights on appeal automatically award all court costs with punative damages going to a jury for award.

 

[Broc Tuah]

Why do you want the CM9 over the PM9? Near as I can tell, the only difference between the two is that the CM9 has a 0.1" shorter barrel.

Not the only difference.

But the PM9 is a higher quality gun. Also more expensive.

 

[Broc Tuah]

If you take your LCFD put of state and come back that's perfectly legal
But if you were questioned, how do you prove that you were not actually importing.
In the end, you aren't getting questioned unless the police are already charging you with a shit ton of other shit.

By telling them nothing and calling a lawyer.

 

[pupchow]

An AR upper confiscated.

http://www.wwlp.com/news/crime/multi-unit-bust-in-springfield-yields-firearms-heroin-and-crack-cocaine/

"Following the arrests, detectives executed a search warrant on the Winter Street apartment. Officers detained Taveon Awosika on the second-floor porch, Gregory Daviau on the third floor, and Rivera on the fourth-floor porch. The apartment search yielded significant contraband, including a 5.56 AR upper receiver, over 240 bags of heroin, approximately 15.3 grams of crack cocaine, 25 rounds of ammunition, and more than $600 in cash."

 

[KAG Arms]

An AR upper confiscated.

http://www.wwlp.com/news/crime/multi-unit-bust-in-springfield-yields-firearms-heroin-and-crack-cocaine/

"Following the arrests, detectives executed a search warrant on the Winter Street apartment. Officers detained Taveon Awosika on the second-floor porch, Gregory Daviau on the third floor, and Rivera on the fourth-floor porch. The apartment search yielded significant contraband, including a 5.56 AR upper receiver, over 240 bags of heroin, approximately 15.3 grams of crack cocaine, 25 rounds of ammunition, and more than $600 in cash."

Crap. I guess I should keep my heroin and AR uppers locked separately.

Does any one know if the crack and heroin can be locked in the same safe or should they also be locked separately?

 

[DJBrad]

Crap. I guess I should keep my heroin and AR uppers locked separately.

Does any one know if the crack and heroin can be locked in the same safe or should they also be locked separately?

Keep the blow in your nose and the crack in your ass.

 

[nitsuj]

Crap. I guess I should keep my heroin and AR uppers locked separately.

Does any one know if the crack and heroin can be locked in the same safe or should they also be locked separately?

Gotta make sure that $600 in cash is stored separately too didn’t realize inflation already cooled off enough to consider that significant