Pre-'98 Kel-Tec P11s: Do they ever turn up?

[BuggsBunny]

Hello friends,

For a while, I've been wanting to get hold of a pre-98 Kel-tec P11. (Just to clarify, this is not a WTB thread. I am thinking of posting one in the appropriate subforum.)

With the kind assistance of another forum member, I've ascertained that they were manufactured beginning in 1995, so I should think that there would have been a fair number sold in MA between '95 and '98. After all, though it's a cheap gun, it was and still is quite an accomplishment to pack 10+1 9mm into a package that size - it seems that it must have been a reasonably hot selling carry piece back when you could get them new here.

So to the question at hand: Why are there so few on the used market in MA?

I check the pre-owned gun list at Four Seasons frequently, and visit other shops from time to time to see what has come in used. Among the more desirable pre-98 guns, I regularly see sub-compact Glocks (mostly at FS) and occasionally a Kahr or two. Some other, more odd guns turn up from time to time as well.

But I NEVER see a Kel-tec P11.

Am I having extremely bad luck, or is it something else?

Do people part with their pre-98 Kel-tecs far less than with Kahrs and other desirable pre-98s?

Or was the P11 simply not a popular gun between '95 and '98, and thus not many are owned in MA?

Or, [gulp] are they so cheaply made that their 6,000-round lifespans were used up and they're all long since dead? [sad2]

There's one for sale right now in the Classified section, but it's a post-98 FTF gun and for various reasons I'm looking for a dealer-transferable one.

Sorry to be long-winded. Any opinions on this topic are welcome.

 

[drgrant]

My guess would be there are either very few pre-98-in-MA samples or
that not many guns were produced close to the cutoff.

Is the P11 even on the EOPS roster? If it isn't, who cares about
provenance? (Edit: I don't think it is, which would explain why there
aren't a lot of them in MA... because the only "exempt" ones are ones
that were physically here before the cutoff. ) If it's not on the roster
you can't import it via FFL transfer anyways (usually) and that's really
the only time it would ever matter. Provenance is irrelevant on FTF sales
or sales where the dealer doesn't care about MA law. (Even though they
risk huge fines, etc, I've seen a few throw caution to the wind from time to
time... they'll remain nameless for obvious reasons. ) It's
no skin off your back if an MA dealer sells something that's "not
compliant". Just be sure you don't get any illegal post-94 large cap mags, etc.

FWIW I did see one store that had two P11s on sale for less
than $450 apiece, course they're long gone now. They may have
been pre98 + papered exempt, but doesn't matter much to the
buyer.

-Mike

 

[drgrant]

There's one for sale right now in the Classified section, but it's a post-98 FTF gun and for various reasons I'm looking for a dealer-transferable one.

FWIW I don't see the aversion to FTF sales- if you're interested
in the harder to get stuff, it's really the only way to buy unless
you want to pay an obscene overprice for something.

The other thing is, even if you get a P11 from a dealer, it may
not have pre-98 exemption proof attached to it anyways (eg, like
an old store reciept or FA-10/blue card copy ) so if
you're trying to retain the capability to consign the gun later
on, that might be a moot point, and buying from a dealer is likely
to gain no advantage. (Some dealers like FS maintain this
paperwork with the used exempt guns they sell, others don't
or at least they don't bother giving the paperwork to the
customer. )


-Mike

 

[Len-2A Training]

A few points of interest:

- Although the law was passed in 1998, this part of the law didn't get implemented until 2/15/2002 when EOPS released the FIRST approved handgun roster (I still have an online copy if anyone is interested, less than 2.3 pages of gun models, 3 columns/page). Thus, dealers were free to sell any handguns until that date.

- I bought two H&K USPc handguns from Four Seasons and another Central MA dealer in Feb/Mar 1999 respectively; H&K P7M8 from Peter Dowd in Sept 1999; and a Taurus PT-111 in Jan 2002 from Fairground Traders. NONE of these guns can ever be sold again in MA by a MA Dealer . . . but all sales were perfectly legal at the time they were made.

- I have subsequent (to the EOPS List) bought some used handguns that I was TOLD were "in-state" on 10/21/98 (cut-off for resale thru dealers if not on EOPS List). When I asked the dealers for some written proof of said status (just in case we want to resell thru a dealer on consignment), I was told "we have nothing to prove it". Oh well, what I bought was a good deal, no skin off my nose if they are wrong, minor inconvenience if I ever go to resell them.

- Life goes on!

There is no reason to restrict to buying only from a dealer if you find what you want from a private party, swap LTCs and do an FA-10 (along with a bill of sale if you'd like). If the person you are dealing with creeps you out, run away and fast . . . this is true if you are doing it at a dealer's shop or just FTF. Do the deal "in neutral territory" unless you know the person you are dealing with . . . gun clubs are ideal for this.

FYI: If someone is selling a stolen gun, even if done thru a dealer, it's still a stolen gun and there is no way for the dealer to know that either (there is no automatic check on dealer transactions). Each of us (private party or dealer) must rely on our "spidey sense" about who we are dealing with. [I was in a shop (regrettably unarmed at that time and in one of the more seedy cities in MA) when two guys came in trying to peddle a few long guns that both the dealer and I are convinced were stolen. Spidey sense told the dealer to tell them to go elsewhere.]

Each buyer/seller has to make their own decisions. So the above is offered to provoke some thoughts only.

 

[BuggsBunny]

drgrant and LenS,

Thank you both for taking the time to volunteer such detailed information.

drgrant said:

The other thing is, even if you get a P11 from a dealer, it may
not have pre-98 exemption proof attached to it anyways (eg, like
an old store reciept or FA-10/blue card copy ) so if
you're trying to retain the capability to consign the gun later
on, that might be a moot point, and buying from a dealer is likely
to gain no advantage.

Yes, that's part of it - I like to keep, whenver possible, the option of easy consignment through a dealer. Not really that much of a deal, though.

A big reason is convenience; I like to be able to buy from, or have the gun transferred to, a dealer in my area, rather than driving across the state to meet if the seller happens to be located far away.

LenS wrote:

- Although the law was passed in 1998, this part of the law didn't get implemented until 2/15/2002 when EOPS released the FIRST approved handgun roster (I still have an online copy if anyone is interested, less than 2.3 pages of gun models, 3 columns/page). Thus, dealers were free to sell any handguns until that date.

This is very enlightening. I never knew that, as my interest in shooting is only about 6 years old, and near the beginning it was quite a job to become informed about all the MA laws and regs.

 

[greycar]

21.8 oz with 11 Speer GoldDots. There's nothing we can buy here to replace them thats this light,
so how can we sell them?

They show up from time to time, but not often. P32's even less often.
GC

SNIP.....
So to the question at hand: Why are there so few on the used market in MA?

 

[Adam_MA]

Shhhhhh

Don't tell anyone, but there's one in the classified section here FOR SALE!
http://northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=25530