Proper Ammunition for Pin Shooting

[otasan]

When I dealt with this subject in my 1991 book "Pin Shooting, A Complete Guide" (now out of print), I recommended gun/cartridge combinations that delivered bullets to the pin at PF195. This level of power works well on good pins on steel-topped tables, but NOT on heavy pins and/or wooden tables.

As many of you know, PF195 equals a 195 grain bullet travelling at 1000 fps. A more common bullet weight in .45 ACP is 230 grains. PF195 in this bullet weight calls for 847 FPS, which is very easy to achieve in .45ACP. In 9mm Parabellum (9x19) the 147gr bullet would need to reach a whopping 1326 FPS! This is far above what even .38 Super can do.

As for .40 S&W, the typical 180gr bullet needs to be at 1083 FPS. This calls for a +p loading in a longer barrel. I think that a Glock Model 24 (6-inch barrel) or the G35 (5.32-inch barrel) may have what it takes, but it is a hot load.

In revolvers, the only way to go is with .357 Magnum, .41 Magnum, .44 Magnum, .45 Long Colt, and .45 ACP. .38 Special, in even its +p loadings, are far too weak for pin shooting

There are specialty .38 Special loads using 200gr bullets in .357 revolvers, but this is a lot of trouble when .357 Magnum cartridges are more than adequate.

.357 Magnums are better for pins when one uses 180-gr bullets or heavier. The .357 magnum can drive the 180-gr bullet at 1200 FPS in 6-inch or longer barrels. The more common 158-gr loadings in .357 Magnum have a bit too much muzzle blast for me, and I prefer more bullet weight.

.41 and .44 Magnums in their full-power loadings are overkill for even the heaviest of pins. The load I use is my 211-gr flat-based wadcutter at 1200 FPS (PF 253 out of my 6-inch S&W M629). I cast this bullet from a Lee six-cavity mold.

.45ACP and .45 Long Colt in revolvers are interesting for pins, but I would use heavy bullets (>230gr) at the highest velocities safely possible for heavy pins and/or wood tables.

Speaking of heavy pins, I attended two pin matches on 10Dec2006. The pins were very heavy at both events. My PF215 .45ACP loads were just barely adequate, and only my PF253 .44 Magnum loads were totally reliable.

So, I realize that not everyone relaods their own cartridges, and there are really NO adequate factory loads in .45 ACP aside from the expensive +p 230-gr JHP loadings. Many folks are stuck with FMJRN, or "hardball" for short. This bullet is less than desireable for pin shooting, for they tend to glance off the hard plastic surface of the pins. SWC or HP are the way to go.

The magnum revolver factory loads are expensive and, in the case of .41 and .44, too powerful. There are medium-power factory loads in .41/.44, and these are well-suited for non-reloading pin shooters.

Some of you who say me shooting pins at Nenameseck and Worcester on 10Dec2006 may have had high praise for me, but I want to humbly tell you the secret of my success.

I use the best ammuntion and calibers for the game, and I have been shooting pins since 1978. I went to Second Chance from 1989-93, and I won the Winchester Shoot-Off in 1990 - the ultimate man-on-man pin shoot competition. I am a Second Chance Master Blaster. BUT, beyond all that, I am a student of this beloved shooting sport, and I search for matches all over New England where the pins are waiting.

I have dabbled in IPSC and IDPA over the years, but PIN SHOOTING is my true love. Now that I am older (50) and wider, pin shooting is even more suited to me. I am set in my ways, so to speak. The last handgun I bought was a G17 in 1989.

Now, back to the subject of this thread. I can summarize by quoting the loads I use for pin-shooting.

In .44 Magnum: Cast 211gr flat-based wadcutter ahead of 7.7 grains of Hodgdon TiteGroup and a Federal 150 primer. This bullet is like very accurate out of my 6-inch S&W M629, and it is a reliable pin-killer. It chronographs at 1200 FPS. This is a semi-exotic load, but it works.

In .45 ACP: Cast 250gr flat-based semi-wadcutter on top of 4.7 grains of Hodgdon TiteGroup and a Winchester large pistol primer. This chronos at 860 FPS out of my 5.5-inch Springfield Armory M1911A1, and 840 FPS out of my Springfield Armory 5-inch M1911A1. This is PF 215 and 210.

So, start with the correct ammunition for the game, and you'll have far less deadwood. One-shot, one-pin is what works best; if a shooter does his/her part, the heaviest pin should go off any table.

Bowling pins are wonderful reaction targets, and they deserve our very best!

 

[drgrant]

FWIW, 230 gr FMJ is probably the most popular pin load out here at
all the central MA shoots, and it works just fine, until they get really
overloaded or blown up. I shoot CCI blazer most of the time which
clocks in the 830 fps range out of a 5" 1911. It does just fine 95% of
the time. I've -never- had glancing problems with 230 FMJ
rounds. If the pin is there and I hit the meat, it goes flying, no
problem. Now, if the meat is shot out of the pin, well, then your
kinda screwed, but that occurs regardless of caliber! It's only ever
lacking when the pins get obnoxiously heavy. I find that by that point,
you're better off putting the .45 away and taking out the .44. (at the
shoots I go to, shooters are not classed by gun, so any gun can be used,
as long as only 6 rounds is loaded in it. ).

I've also had the luxury of shooting some rem golden sabre 185+P's at the
pins.... and that load works really well too, assuming you can control
it. The only problem with it is the POI is slightly different, even at 25
feet, out of some guns. It sure seems to add some potency
though. 185 gr bullet going 1170 fps = screamin!

Some guys are loading up 250 gr bullets and having decent luck with them
in .45 ACP as well, assuming their gun will feed the things.

IMO the overhwelming factor seems to be bullet weight and diameter more
than speed. EG, a guy with a .357 mag is a lot better off using heavy
bullets in a full wadcutter config than he is using like a 125 gr round nose
bullet. Light, fast bullets with narrow profiles seem to blast right through
the pins instead of dumping their energy/momentum. This is especially
true once the pins start getting beat up.

On the low end, I've seen people "get away" with using .40 S+W 180 gr
loads, but usually .40 is inadequate once the pins start to get
heavy. 10mm Auto is somewhat better with even mid powered 10mm
lcommercial loads. The "Norma" grade stuff is great, providing your
using a heavy bullet.

The .44 mag guys typically get away with shooting .44 spl type loads
until the pins get obnoxious, and then they get out the magnum loads once
the pins get heavy.

When the pins are REAL heavy, .44 mag rules the roost. The contestants
also use full horse .44 mag loads to punish the people running the shoot,
eg, the .44 mags blow up the undesirable pins pretty readily after a few
matches. There is one club in the local circuit that is
notorious for reusing the pins until theres nothing left of them.

-Mike

 

[Dan S]

I've not shot pins in a long time, but, that game hasn't changed. I attended Second Chance in the mid 80's.
Most of the local matches are man on man, are they not? If so, the ammo requirement is a bit less critical. The beauty of Second Chance was it was against the clock, and time stopped when the last pin hit the ground, not at the last shot fired. Heavy bullets ruled the roost on this format. The successful revolver shooters, were using model 27's 8 3/8" and used 200 grain wadcutters. By successful revolver shooters, I mean Jerry Miculek, his brother, and a couple others from Louisianna. I think Jerry's faster now than he was then. Mas Ayoob preached the 200 grain Speer JHP loaded hot, it had a huge hollow point. Some guns didn't want to feed that one all the time either. Without going to the 255 SWC in the .45 ACP, the next best bullet would be the 230 truncated cone, such as Hornady makes or made. Cast versions are easily found. Round nose will work, but not as well as the flat nosed bullets. Momentum is more important than pure velocity.

 

[dwarven1]

Speaking of heavy pins, I attended two pin matches on 10Dec2006. The pins were very heavy at both events. My PF215 .45ACP loads were just barely adequate, and only my PF253 .44 Magnum loads were totally reliable.
[snip]
Some of you who say me shooting pins at Nenameseck and Worcester on 10Dec2006 may have had high praise for me, but I want to humbly tell you the secret of my success.

Mitch, I'd say that there's a LOT of practice in that "secret", too. I watched you shoot - you targeted those pins quickly and it was like listening to a metronome. One shot, one pin, retarget, repeat. I didn't miss many pins, but I couldn't shoot them as fast as you were going.

Also, once I figured out where to hit the darn things, my .45 230 gr RNL reloads seems to do a pretty good job. Although it'd be nice to have some more velocity, I think... I was getting some dead wood later on.

I do want to thank you for your informative post above; I had a great time Sunday and since my friend lives only about 3-4 miles away, I suspect that I'll be there again. With more potent loads for my .357, you betcha!

And as for your book that's out of print... the printing industry has moved on considerably in 15 years. Many authors are going that route now. link
And another link - this one is to a guide to Book-On-Demand Printing by Roger MacBride Allen, a well-known science fiction author and someone who believes in this process. Certainly I'd be interested in a copy of your book!

 

[Cuz]

Otasan,
Great info, thanks! I would be interested in getting a copy of your book. Any chance you got some kicking around in your attic you'd be willing to part with?

-Cuz

 

[otasan]

Only one

Otasan,
Great info, thanks! I would be interested in getting a copy of your book. Any chance you got some kicking around in your attic you'd be willing to part with?

-Cuz

I have only one copy!

Bummer . . .

 

[otasan]

Hardball .45 ACP

Reduces the target area on a pin by an inch on both the left and right. A good semiwadcutter bites into the hard plastic surface whereas a round-nosed FMJ will glance off.

I use bullets that will allow me to have a five-inch-wide target instead of a three-inch-wide target. This is a huge advantage that can be taken advantage of by simply using the right bullet configuration.

Also, have you pin-shooters noticed how often a shooter if faced with a deadwood pin whose head is pointing right at the shooter? This is a very difficult target, for the bullet needs to hit the pin right into the top of the head to drag it back off the table. That is, if the shooter is using FMJRN.

My SWC can hit the head OR shoulder, dig in, and drag the pin off the table.

I am going to cast a lot of bullets for pin shooting this winter, and I will have some available for reloaders to try.

 

[Cuz]

I am going to cast a lot of bullets for pin shooting this winter, and I will have some available for reloaders to try.

Is there a pin shooting revival going on that I missed? I thought pin shooting was going away. Too many problems disposing of lead filled pins, availability issues, etc. Maybe it's just the circuit I was shooting on. They transitioned to steel plates about mid summer and have done away with pins altogether. In reality, I like shooting steel just as much as pins. Reactionary targets are just soooo much fun to shoot at. I think I like the man vs man format better than racing against the timer. It's those direct head to head battles that make for the best trash talking.


-Cuz.

 

[otasan]

I have only one copy!

Bummer . . .

Google "Mitchell Ota"

First listing will be for my book in amazon.com

 

[jhrosier]

Google "Mitchell Ota"

First listing will be for my book in amazon.com

Thanks, got it.

 

[drgrant]

Reduces the target area on a pin by an inch on both the left and right. A good semiwadcutter bites into the hard plastic surface whereas a round-nosed FMJ will glance off.

I use bullets that will allow me to have a five-inch-wide target instead of a three-inch-wide target. This is a huge advantage that can be taken advantage of by simply using the right bullet configuration.

Also, have you pin-shooters noticed how often a shooter if faced with a deadwood pin whose head is pointing right at the shooter? This is a very difficult target, for the bullet needs to hit the pin right into the top of the head to drag it back off the table. That is, if the shooter is using FMJRN.

My SWC can hit the head OR shoulder, dig in, and drag the pin off the table.

I am going to cast a lot of bullets for pin shooting this winter, and I will have some available for reloaders to try.

Now reading into it, I see what you're getting at. I can definitely
see where the payoff would be, especially when the pins are screwed
up.

The thing is, at least when the pins are halfway decent, I don't have
that many pin failures with 230 FMJ. Failures meaning pins that get hit
but don't clear the table. I either hit the things dead on or I waffle the
shot so badly that I miss them completely. I don't get a lot of near
misses. Of course, I'm not at the ability level where I can "game" the
accuracy/speed tradeoff trick like a lot of pro shooters do, using a
"controlled slap" or whatnot for the accuracy level required. Most
of the people where I shoot, you can beat 50% of them by being
accurate as opposed to fast. There are some top level shooters
above me though that are super fast with low split times.

Course, if nobody is running SWCs, everyone ends up having the
same handicap, I guess. I see them occasionally but not that
much. There are more blunt bullet types (flat nose, jhp) showing up
in the guys that shoot .44 mag than there is in .45 ACP. There
are several reloaders but most don't load SWC. It may be because
they don't want to clean the lead smeg out of their pistols... not
sure. There are some that shoot lead exclusively, and then some that
shoot a mixture of both lead/jhp (usually wheelie guys).

WRT the top forward pins... for some reason I don't see this "condition" a
lot. Most of the time during a "pin failure" the pin is sideways or ends
up being butt forward for some reason. Every once in awhile I've seen
one top forward, but thats the exception rather than the rule.

It definitely sounds like you know what you're doing, though. If you
came to the shoots around here, you'd probably be waxing the floor
with most of us. I can only think of about 4-5 guys that might give you a
run for your money, and I'm not one of em. I'm at the stage where
I'm accurate enough but I still am trying to overcome the habit of
wanting to wait for the pin to move before I go to the next one... slowly
but surely.

I think over the winter I'm going to get into reloading .45 ACP exclusively, so
I might develop an SWC load for it too, just to see what it does to the
pins in the spring. I'm trying to -avoid- getting a .44 mag so I don't
have to learn another whole manual of arms.

-Mike

 

[drgrant]

I've not shot pins in a long time, but, that game hasn't changed. I attended Second Chance in the mid 80's.
Most of the local matches are man on man, are they not? If so, the ammo requirement is a bit less critical. The beauty of Second Chance was it was against the clock, and time stopped when the last pin hit the ground, not at the last shot fired. Heavy bullets ruled the roost on this format.

Yeah, it's man vs man (in central MA) but the rule about who's pin hits first
definitely applies. There has been a few -weird- scenarios where two
guys hit the last pin at exact same time, but the guy with the .45 ACP
shooting rocks at it ended up winning because the pin didn't get launched
as far and spent less time in the air! This seems to be the only situation
where .44 mag can be a downside... if the pins are fresh there is a lot more
airtime with .44!

It seems to me that early in the day the ammo is not so critical... but
once those suckers get loaded up, the loads can sometimes make the
difference between winning and losing, especially if two shooters of similar
ability are going off against each other.

-Mike

 

[dwarven1]

Most of the people where I shoot, you can beat 50% of them by being accurate as opposed to fast.

Mitch is NOT one of them... unfortunately.

If you came to the shoots around here, you'd probably be waxing the floor with most of us. I can only think of about 4-5 guys that might give you a run for your money, and I'm not one of em. I'm at the stage where I'm accurate enough but I still am trying to overcome the habit of
wanting to wait for the pin to move before I go to the next one... slowly
but surely.

He did... and waiting for that darned pin to fall is what did me in. Oh well... for my first pin shoot I don't feel that I did too bad. But I can sure see how addicting it is!!

 

[drgrant]

Is there a pin shooting revival going on that I missed? I thought pin shooting was going away. Too many problems disposing of lead filled pins, availability issues, etc. Maybe it's just the circuit I was shooting on. They transitioned to steel plates about mid summer and have done away with pins altogether. In reality, I like shooting steel just as much as pins. Reactionary targets are just soooo much fun to shoot at. I think I like the man vs man format better than racing against the timer. It's those direct head to head battles that make for the best trash talking.


-Cuz.

There have always been pin shoots in central MA. The only difference is
in the past few years a club has dropped off from the rotation
and one club was flakey last year and didn't start till mid season, but I
think they're going to come back again. The participants come and
go, but theres a group of "constants" that show up most of the
time.

I think in some cases the person at a given club that was running the
shoots gets tired of doing it, or the club edges them out due to
politics, etc.

Some of the clubs I shoot at do steel, but none of them did it this past
season except for Lunenburg, and that was a less competitive
format, but a lot cheaper for the participants. I do like steel though,
because you can bring out the 9's and .38s for that. There is
something alluring about wood pins, because it introduces a lot more
entropy into the game. Steel is pretty binary whereas wood pins are a lot
more random.

And yes, there is a lot of trash talking, at least among the guys that
know each other. And theres also a lot of icing and other stuff like that,
too. It can get pretty amusing at times. Theres also the constant
accusation of sandbagging and the like that goes on. (There seems to be
certain individuals who always get 2nd place, so they can get a free round
but no extra pins! ) lol.

-Mike

 

[drgrant]

Mitch is NOT one of them... unfortunately

Obviously he's not in that lower 50% then, thats for sure.

He did... and waiting for that darned pin to fall is what did me in. Oh well... for my first pin shoot I don't feel that I did too bad. But I can sure see how addicting it is!!

One other thing to keep in mind, is that there can be a sort of
learning curve. I sucked badly the first time I went out and I did
not win a single match. Then when the 05 season started I sucked
for most of that season, but by the end of that season I was
starting to clean house. In 06 I really cleaned house, with the exception
of the day where the sear in my pin gun self destructed. I lost my
mettle at that point and I couldn't get in the rhythm with my backup gun,
which basically is an uncompensated Kimber 1911 with a dawson fiber front
on it. It's a capable gun, but when you shoot a compensated 1911 with a
reddot on it all the time, one tends to get spoiled rotten. Now I intentionally
cycle the "open" gun out so I can get more time on conventional sights. I
cycle out a lot to a regular sighted/uncomped gun if they put me against a newbie,
to make it more challenging for myself and fairer for the newbie. Most of the time
they try to make relays according to ability, but sometimes there isn't enough or
there are too many shooters. This isn't to say that I go unchallenged... thats for crap
sure... there are still a number of guys that consistently "pwn" me at the line... sometimes I get
pretty close to beating them, but its always like they're a half step ahead of me!
I've beaten a couple of really good guys because their equipment malfed, but I don't consider
that a win in the truest sense....

The best matches though by far are the fun rounds that some clubs
run. Basically at the end of the day what they do is they have a 2
man team face off against another 2 man team, and they put 8 pins
(4 standing up, 4 laying down) and an empty 12G shotgun shell on the table.
The shotgun shell must be blown off first and then they can start shooting the
pins off. They also remove the capacity limit for this round, although
it doesn't make a whole lot of difference.

-Mike

 

[otasan]

Obviously he's not in that lower 50% then, thats for sure.



One other thing to keep in mind, is that there can be a sort of
learning curve. I sucked badly the first time I went out and I did
not win a single match. Then when the 05 season started I sucked
for most of that season, but by the end of that season I was
starting to clean house. In 06 I really cleaned house, with the exception
of the day where the sear in my pin gun self destructed. I lost my
mettle at that point and I couldn't get in the rhythm with my backup gun,
which basically is an uncompensated Kimber 1911 with a dawson fiber front
on it. It's a capable gun, but when you shoot a compensated 1911 with a
reddot on it all the time, one tends to get spoiled rotten. Now I intentionally
cycle the "open" gun out so I can get more time on conventional sights. I
cycle out a lot to a regular sighted/uncomped gun if they put me against a newbie,
to make it more challenging for myself and fairer for the newbie. Most of the time
they try to make relays according to ability, but sometimes there isn't enough or
there are too many shooters. This isn't to say that I go unchallenged... thats for crap
sure... there are still a number of guys that consistently "pwn" me at the line... sometimes I get
pretty close to beating them, but its always like they're a half step ahead of me!
I've beaten a couple of really good guys because their equipment malfed, but I don't consider
that a win in the truest sense....

The best matches though by far are the fun rounds that some clubs
run. Basically at the end of the day what they do is they have a 2
man team face off against another 2 man team, and they put 8 pins
(4 standing up, 4 laying down) and an empty 12G shotgun shell on the table.
The shotgun shell must be blown off first and then they can start shooting the
pins off. They also remove the capacity limit for this round, although
it doesn't make a whole lot of difference.

-Mike

Mike, that sounds like my kind of pin shoot. I LOVE team events.

Where and when, SVP?

 

[drgrant]

Mike, that sounds like my kind of pin shoot. I LOVE team events.

Where and when, SVP?

All the matches around here start in the spring. Once they get me the
schedules I will post them all. I can probably also send you the flyers
so you can use them for "butt protectors" if you don't live in MA. ( In MA,
any kind of formalized competition allows for an exemption to bring your guns
in and out of the state. )

FWIW, I think only Westminster does the "fun rounds", but regardless most
of the shoots around here are halfway decent. The more people we get
the more interesting it gets, IMO.

-Mike

 

[otasan]

All the matches around here start in the spring. Once they get me the
schedules I will post them all. I can probably also send you the flyers
so you can use them for "butt protectors" if you don't live in MA. ( In MA,
any kind of formalized competition allows for an exemption to bring your guns
in and out of the state. )

FWIW, I think only Westminster does the "fun rounds", but regardless most
of the shoots around here are halfway decent. The more people we get
the more interesting it gets, IMO.

-Mike

Merci beacoup!

 

[otasan]

250gr LSWC .452 bullets

I am going to make a bunch in the next two weeks, and I will have them in 100-round boxes for sale at all of the pin matches that I attend. I'll have some reloading recipes as well.

This style of bullet is commercially-cast, and should be available at most full-service gun stores, such as Rileys in Hooksett, NH and the Kittery(ME) trading Post come to mind.

The 225-230gr cast lead flat-points are fine pin-killers as well, when driven at a minimum of 900 FPS. This can be done quite easily, as there are many published recipes.

One-shot, one-pin is the way to go, and a PF210 heavy slug is the best way to do it!

I look forward to seeing all of you at the many pin matches in the Spring and Summer.