Red Dot EDC experience

[Deplorable]

Got a red dot optics for my full size hand gun recently. I am a believer now. Takes some time to master the proper presentation, also I do not think I will ever have a courage to get rid of iron sights which serve as a backup, but overall the benefits are too great to ignore. That said, this is my range/night stand gun. Meaning some widely known drawbacks of red dot do not apply.

Now I am considering mounting optics on Sig P365XL for EDC.

This is not to kick off yet another one general Red Dot pro and contra discussion. I am seeking first hand experience carrying a compact pistol with red dot optics IWB and bringing it to the range oftentimes. I have very specific concerns, which are

-- messing with the optics - lens getting foggy or greasy while carrying
-- messing with the housing - zeroing issues
-- lens getting scratched or damaged when shooting (so far no issues on a full size gun, lens stay clean after several hundred rounds, but this might be pistol size and/or model dependent)
-- issues with draw
-- extra printing

Thank you!

 

[ReluctantDecoy]

Got a red dot optics for my full size hand gun recently. I am a believer now. Takes some time to master the proper presentation, also I do not think I will ever have a courage to get rid of iron sights which serve as a backup, but overall the benefits are too great to ignore. That said, this is my range/night stand gun. Meaning some widely known drawbacks of red dot do not apply.

Now I am considering mounting optics on Sig P365XL for EDC.

This is not to kick off yet another one general Red Dot pro and contra discussion. I am seeking first hand experience carrying a compact pistol with red dot optics IWB and bringing it to the range oftentimes. I have very specific concerns, which are

-- messing with the optics - lens getting foggy or greasy while carrying
-- messing with the housing - zeroing issues
-- lens getting scratched or damaged when shooting (so far no issues on a full size gun, lens stay clean after several hundred rounds, but this might be pistol size and/or model dependent)
-- issues with draw
-- extra printing

Thank you!

Mine doesn't get greasy or scratched provided you just aren't touching the glass, but it gets linty/dusty as hell. I think some of that is actually from clothes, but some of it might actually by dead skin flaking off in the winter (yes, gross, I know). Nothing that would prevent you from being accurate, but does require a blow off now and then.

Printing is negligible. My IWB appendix is cut away to give room for it, but if the red dot wasn't there, the holster itself would lend to bulk in that area. Draw is also largely unaffected. I haven't felt it snag on anything yet.

I do wonder though...and bear with me on this limb I'm climbing out on as it's probably a dumb scenario, but what would a happen if you used a pistol with a red dot in a defensive shooting? Would whoever is coming at you attempt to point at the red dot as some trigger-happy accessory like a 3lb trigger?

 

[jkelly1229]

I hate rds's but I'll say this...

There won't be an issue drawing it if you get the proper holster

Printing won't be an issue either.

Unless you rub shit all over your lense I wouldnt worry too much there either

 

[BrianWilson]

No issues here.
Skip right over the Zero though. Haven't had any problems with it, holds zero and all, but there's a 507K on the way.

 

[Deplorable]

Thank you for sharing, yes clothes fabric and skin are two major suspects. If combined with high humidity or sweat, the results might be quite terminal considering the use case. Really concerns me. Yet, I did not read about an experience of rds being totally disabled on presentation by whatever it accumulated iwb. Oh, wait, where might be a reason why, though :о(

 

[Deplorable]

I do wonder though...and bear with me on this limb I'm climbing out on as it's probably a dumb scenario, but what would a happen if you used a pistol with a red dot in a defensive shooting? Would whoever is coming at you attempt to point at the red dot as some trigger-happy accessory like a 3lb trigger?

Frankly, I am not sure I follow you. Do you mean lighter trigger might be another improvement to consider?

 

[Deplorable]

No issues here.
Skip right over the Zero though. Haven't had any problems with it, holds zero and all, but there's a 507K on the way.

Yeah, feedback on Zero is rather scary. Thinking of 507K as well, not quite sure how their rear sight will marry with p365xl front, though. Would appreciate if you share your feedback when installed.

 

[ReluctantDecoy]

Frankly, I am not sure I follow you. Do you mean lighter trigger might be another improvement to consider?

It's kind of a stupid hypothetical scenario I mentioned and maybe not even worth the conversation now that I'm looking back on it. There is supposedly a school of thought that one should be cautious when adding certain after market things to their guns to avoid giving prosecutors something to point at in the unlikely scenario of having to actually use your gun in a defensive scenario. Things like lighter triggers, Punisher logos, anything really that might make it seem more credible that a shooting was perpetrated by someone eager to shoot someone else.

 

[paul73]

-- messing with the optics - lens getting foggy or greasy while carrying
-- messing with the housing - zeroing issues
-- lens getting scratched or damaged when shooting (so far no issues on a full size gun, lens stay clean after several hundred rounds, but this might be pistol size and/or model dependent)
-- issues with draw
-- extra printing

it will depend upon RDS you choose, i have leupold dpp and i can tell - i hate it when it is in the IWB holster. OWB is fine.
foggy/greasy - no. zeroing - no, it holds zero fine. housing usually prevents it from scratching unless you are really trying to scratch it.

you will need a holster that does not obstruct the RDS. at draw - it depends upon RDS, those with frames extending outside of the slide frame may be catching a bit. with an OWB holster it is not an issue.
on a carry gun - to help aim - i have a laser on the frame. that is much more practical for defense than an RDS.

last - i never carry a gun with RDS on it. i have other slide i use for carry, non MOS, and i see no benefit at all from RDS in the practical defense situation. if you decide to carry it, make sure to have proper visible co-witness sights installed. RDS really shines at longer distance engagement. unless it is an outright war outside i do not expect to be a part of a real shootout at 25yds+.
also, as was partially mentioned above, to have a long distance engagement assist on your weapon my be treated as an intention to escalate such an engagement - not the best line of defence in the soviet republic of MA.

 

[kevblah]

im a huge believer in red dots for range and competition and nightstand guns, absolutely love them

but for me personally, the drawbacks of extra size and weight for comfort outweigh the benefits of a red dot imo

the vast majority of gunfights involving civilians happen between 3 to 5 yards - even if you double those numbers, i wouldnt need a red dot to engage quickly and effectively

of course the argument can be made well wouldnt u want to be as accurate as possible? well yes. but then again wouldnt u also want to carry as many rounds as possible? also yes. then it becomes a slippery slope and the next thing you know we're all carrying full size service pistols with 3 spare mags

compromises do have to be made for a carry gun, everyone makes them and everyone is different

 

[paul73]

but for me personally, the drawbacks of extra size and weight for comfort outweigh the benefits of a red dot imo

a defence gun should have no safety and nothing extra to be pressed or switched after the draw.
if you were trained to do israeli carry - you can have it with no round in the chamber - rest should have it loaded and ready to fire.

messing with a red dot button, safety switches, other gizmos is counterproductive. lasers included, but, at night/dark time the laser assist is priceless.
plus, if you hit an assaulting party with a 5mW green laser right in the eyes - you may not event need to shoot it dead after that.

 

[kevblah]

a defence gun should have no safety and nothing extra to be pressed or switched after the draw.
if you were trained to do israeli carry - you can have it with no round in the chamber - rest should have it loaded and ready to fire.

messing with a red dot button, safety switches, other gizmos is counterproductive. lasers included, but, at night/dark time the laser assist is priceless.
plus, if you hit an assaulting party with a 5mW green laser right in the eyes - you may not event need to shoot it dead after that.

i agree with you there. my EDC is a P365 SAS - i like that its slick and doesnt snag, no safety, and 10+1. sighting system is not for everyone, but it works just fine for me

 

[moojpg2]

Main problem I have with rd's for carry is we live in New England, stand outside in the cold for 10 minutes and then walk into a warm building, (like park your car and walk across parking lot into a mall or store) you now cannot aim at all without wiping the damn thing off because it's fogged, and you can't see your front sight either. Same for summer, sit inside in the A/C for a while and then go outside on a humid day and have some crack head pull a knife on you and demand your wallet....you'll be like "well hold on for a second while I wipe my red dot off so I can see my sights"

 

[Deplorable]

Main problem I have with rd's for carry is we live in New England, stand outside in the cold for 10 minutes and then walk into a warm building, (like park your car and walk across parking lot into a mall or store) you now cannot aim at all without wiping the damn thing off because it's fogged, and you can't see your front sight either. Same for summer, sit inside in the A/C for a while and then go outside on a humid day and have some crack head pull a knife on you and demand your wallet....you'll be like "well hold on for a second while I wipe my red dot off so I can see my sights"

This assumes OWB or even off body carry. As long as you are alive and well the lens will be preheated to almost 100 F when presented from IWB. To get them foggy you got to engage in a gun fight inside of a steam room. Seriously, though, some really unusual circumstance might happen, and RDS might become that single point of failure - getting fogged is just one of them. Totally agree.

 

[Cap'n Mike]

I have been EDCing a p365xl with a factory installed Zero Red Dot Sight on it for 6 months or so.
The advantage of a RDS in a self defense situation is that you focus on the target (the person attacking you) not the front sight. The RDS makes it easier to hit a moving target, while you yourself are moving, which you want to be doing (moving) in a gun fight.

Put painters tape over the front of the lens and shoot with both eyes open. You can still see the dot and still use it to hit your target.

Lint getting into the projector and blocking the led dot is a possibility, so keep it clean.

Lots of misunderstanding about RDS on pistols.

 

[moojpg2]

This assumes OWB or even off body carry. As long as you are alive and well the lens will be preheated to almost 100 F when presented from IWB. To get them foggy you got to engage in a gun fight inside of a steam room. Seriously, though, some really unusual circumstance might happen, and RDS might become that single point of failure - getting fogged is just one of them. Totally agree.

I often carry owb, concealed but maybe only under a loose shirt or jacket, it still fogs if the temps are far enough off, I've tried, and sometimes it will fog after you draw the gun too. If I was an always IWB guy or appendix carried I wouldn't worry as much, but my daily routine and areas out here in western ma that I frequent are such that I don't have to be too paranoid so I often carry owb under a cover garment as it's more comfortable.

 

[MaverickNH]

Get some Defog-It wipes and hit every lens on every red dot and scope you own. I’ve recently carried my Ruger 57 with Vortex Viper snowshoeing this year in a chest holster while it was snowing, and drawn to plink in the woods. I just blew the dot off to get the pooled water out and shot. Not picture perfect clear, but I could hit a sneaker hanging from a tree at 20yd (it was Left Sneaker Trail in [location withheld] in SoNH, where nobody cares if you shoot.

I did a great class at SIG with my P320 Compact and Romeo RD where we had to simulate getting shot in primary arm, slap on TQ, then reload 1-armed and rack the slide against a barrier or boot. The RD was just so easy to do that with vs iron sights.

Never had a snag on draw from a belt holster. I’d leave a RD, light, laser off a deep-carry or ankle holster. Not enough real estate to conceal a compact with all those accessories.

Disclaimer: I don’t shoot people for a living, so seek professional advice

 

[Deplorable]

last - i never carry a gun with RDS on it. i have other slide i use for carry, non MOS, and i see no benefit at all from RDS in the practical defense situation. if you decide to carry it, make sure to have proper visible co-witness sights installed. RDS really shines at longer distance engagement. unless it is an outright war outside i do not expect to be a part of a real shootout at 25yds+.

Good point. As to me, I do not know what to expect. Statistically majority of gunfights happens at the very close range, where you probably do not need sights at all. That said, if RDS offers no benefit in, say 9 civilian gunfights our of 10, I am the kind of person who thinks what to do if my fight falls into 1 out of 10 category, rather than speculating on how low are the odds to get there. If I can buy some advantage, I will do it. My concern is mostly about adverse effects.

also, as was partially mentioned above, to have a long distance engagement assist on your weapon my be treated as an intention to escalate such an engagement - not the best line of defence in the soviet republic of MA.

Yeah, thanks for the reminder. Indeed, it feels like a bad dream now. Happened to live in a soviet republic back in a day. Now all that crap I thought I escaped from starts following me. And in some ways it is much worse in here. But I am going off topic, sorry about that.

I agree, the "intention to escalate" is pretty valid concern. That said, I consider (arguably?) talking to a judge being a success compared to meeting St Peter prematurely. So, no concerns on making any legal improvements, assuming they come with a real advantage.

 

[E.Stoner]

99% percent of "issues" or common complaints with red dots usually can be tracked down to a lack of time with a dot or bad fundamentals in the first place. I tend to have some serious doubts about the credibility/experience of the most vocal detractors.

I've been carrying around an RMR on a glock19 off-and-on for three years without issue and have just switched my EDC from a p365 to a P365XL slide with a holosun 507K since September. I am completely sold on the concept.
My speed and accuracy still lags behind a fullsize (especially with reloading), but shooting performance between p365 with irons is night and day. Its not even close. Really decent accuracty out past 15 yards is now not big deal.
I've never had any significant issue with fogging, but I also REGULARLY clean my dot and apply Catcrap. The only time I have ever had any issue with a dot was shooting a match (with a G34 + SRO) and in the third stage the sun poked up over the berm and was directly shining in my eyes and through a dirty lens. I still got good hits.

The "weight" and "bulk" of an optic is minimal, and snagging isn't a thing. FYI dressing around a gun IS a thing and a part of figuring out how to concealed carry throughout the seasons.

 

[RLBreton]

I'm an old fat guy who carries a G19 with a 507C at 4 o'clock for close to 18 months now, and the only issue I have is lint collection, but that's likely because I don't clean my carry gun as often as I should - maybe every 3 months I do a full breakdown. I run an Alpha Concealment Gryphon and never have printing or hang up issues with the draw and I have done maybe half a dozen 300+ round range days and maybe 30 or so one handed slide manipulations off the optic and it holds zero--at least well enough that I can easily blame my shitty shooting and not the optic I've only had fogging when you'd expect--cold to hot environment.

 

[Deplorable]

I've been carrying around an RMR on a glock19 off-and-on for three years without issue and have just switched my EDC from a p365 to a P365XL slide with a holosun 507K since September. I am completely sold on the concept.

Thank you for sharing the pictures and experience. I believe 507K features some kind of a notch to serve as a rear sight. Is it usable on p365xl with the stock front sight, though?

 

[Queen Bee]

I plan on getting my 26 and 19 milled for a 507 with the new vulcan reticle


View: https://youtu.be/j_dU7xqmBq0

 

[Wickedcoolname]

Personally, I wouldn't trust my life to batteries. In my experience they will fail just when you need them most. I'd stick with iron sights on my personal carry or duty gun.

 

[Deplorable]

Personally, I wouldn't trust my life to batteries. In my experience they will fail just when you need them most. I'd stick with iron sights on my personal carry or duty gun.

Me neither. The thing is you can keep the iron sights. I still aiming using iron sights and switch to red dot when it shows up. But this is like a bonus, if battery goes dead or projector gets blocked, I just stick with sights naturally. My only concern is obstructed view - if you can not see the front sight (e.g. foggy lens) and battery is dead at the same time, the game is over.

 

[paul73]

I think if i ever decide to go with any red dot on the EDC - it will be a different slide. i just cannot justify ruining the perfect shape of the P365.
i have it in a very generic nothing special kydex holster - just added some thin foam inside of it to prevent any sliding/bouncing - and it sits very comfortably at appendix or 4pm positions.
a red dot protruding forward i can only see to complicate things and make it less comfortable than it is now, it will be totally counterproductive.
it has the light/laser on it already - and it is perfectly fine as is. i went back and forth with an idea of getting an extra p365xl slide for it, and, so far see no reason to do it at all.
also, the p365xl is longer, and the deal with p365 is - it has a perfect length so this holster when you sit is not pressing into your hip/leg at all. a longer slide you cannot sit with so easily.

 

[weekendracer]

I do wonder though...and bear with me on this limb I'm climbing out on as it's probably a dumb scenario, but what would a happen if you used a pistol with a red dot in a defensive shooting? Would whoever is coming at you attempt to point at the red dot as some trigger-happy accessory like a 3lb trigger?

That's a very abstract limb you're crawling out on. It's either a good shoot, or it isn't.

I'm still waiting for someone to give me a case where such an argument was ever used to slant a jury towards 'bad shoot'. It's the same as the old 'cops shouldn't shoot perfect scores on their qualification' argument.

That said, I'm willing to run backwards faster than Usain Bolt in the 100m if someone ever gives me a verdict like that.

Edit: I'd be more worried about battery life, because I'd forget about it. And from 2nd hand experience, deadly force encounters are close and quick. I have exceptions because some of my examples are extended range between moving vehicles that are 'WAY' outside the norm, even for most law enforcement.

 

[citoriguy]

I have been EDCing a p365xl with a factory installed Zero Red Dot Sight on it for 6 months or so.
The advantage of a RDS in a self defense situation is that you focus on the target (the person attacking you) not the front sight. The RDS makes it easier to hit a moving target, while you yourself are moving, which you want to be doing (moving) in a gun fight.

Put painters tape over the front of the lens and shoot with both eyes open. You can still see the dot and still use it to hit your target.

Lint getting into the projector and blocking the led dot is a possibility, so keep it clean.

Lots of misunderstanding about RDS on pistols.

Great drill - wish I had thought of it sooner. I will do this the next time I pull my SRO’d gun out for range time. Thanks.

 

[JY0512]

Have a Trijicon RMR mounted on a P320, have had no problems. Once you try it, it's tough to go back. Like @Cap'n Mike said, there is a definite advantage being able to focus on your target with a red dot.

 

[Cap'n Mike]

Great drill - wish I had thought of it sooner. I will do this the next time I pull my SRO’d gun out for range time. Thanks.

It works from the old "Bindon Aiming Concept"

Bindon Aiming Concept (BAC) | Trijicon®

Both eyes open” shooting was discovered by Glyn Bindon, the founder of Trijicon, and is called the Bindon Aiming Concept (BAC).

www.trijicon.com

The relationship between the human eye and the human brain is an amazing thing.

 

[Cap'n Mike]

It seems some people think of a red dot sight on a handgun like its a magnified scope.
Its not, its a sight, just like your front sight, only you dont have to focus on it, you can focus on the target.
If a person is worried about reliability, spend the money on a trijicon RMR. Its at least as likely to fail as the iron sights on your pistol.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yzpJBrLU5U