Remington CFC issues?

[ThePreBanMan]

Anyone have an issue with this:
http://rockcenter.msnbc.msn.com/_ne...ifles-claim-pattern-of-inadvertent-discharges

Normally I would think it was MSNBC anti gun smoke - but I actually had an incident myself. After a day at the range with my Remington shotgun I had taken the trigger assembly out for cleaning. It also employs the Remington common fire control system. I had left the hammer cocked on the assembly during the process. (had cycled the weapon to insure it was empty before disassembly and just left it that way)
I had just finished spraying it down with gun scrubber. I was shaking the assembly to remove excess liquid and dry the unit. I tapped it on the table I was working on to shake off the remaining gun scrubber and much to my surprise the hammer dropped! What the heck. Upon closer inspection I realized the safety was on too!
I never looked at that shotgun the same way again... Never bought another Remington either.

Remington has mentioned that the failures they have seen have been due to lack of maintenance and poor cleaning. At the time this occurred with me my shotgun had less than 500 rounds through it - and i just finished cleaning it! I can assure you it is well maintained as well.

Anyone else have a similar experience? Seeing this story made me thing of mentioning it here.

 

[hurley431]

Guns can and do go off when disturbed (I.E. banged, shaken, kicked...etc...) sometimes. I've seen it happen a couple times with live rounds in a military m-4 and an M-500; never point a weapon at something you aren't ready to destroy. For the most part, it's because of poor maintanence, broken parts, or out of spec parts. A gun is just a machine, machines fail.

 

[atmay]

Given the number of 870s that are out there (considering its been in production for what...55 years?), its not surprising that a fairly large number of out-of-spec/defective weapons are out there. I would be incredibly surprised, however, if the percentage of 870s in existence that will do this was anything remotely near being significant.

 

[TBalls]

Given the number of 870s that are out there (considering its been in production for what...55 years?), its not surprising that a fairly large number of out-of-spec/defective weapons are out there. I would be incredibly surprised, however, if the percentage of 870s in existence that will do this was anything remotely near being significant.

This.

His understanding had always been that a gun is not supposed to fire without the trigger being pulled. “That’s what I’ve always known,” he says. “Especially when the safety is on.”

Uh, how about understanding how your gun actually functions? He should have known that the safety on the 870 only prevents (theoretically) the trigger from being pulled; it is my understanding that most long guns are not specifically drop safe (i.e. firing pins essentially float freely). Why would anyone lean a loaded gun up against a car?

 

[M1911]

it is my understanding that most long guns are not specifically drop safe (i.e. firing pins essentially float freely).

That is my understanding as well. Most long guns do not have a firing pin block. So the firing pin is free to move. In addition, a long-gun firing pin is typically bigger and heavier than a pistol firing pin, so it has more inertia. As a result, it may discharge if dropped.

Lots of people are scared by a cocked-and-locked Series 70 1911, but aren't scared by a loaded long gun. Both are cocked, single-action guns without a firing pin block. But the long gun may well be more likely to discharge if dropped.

 

[ThePreBanMan]

This was just my observation that I thought I would share. I'm not even implying that there is something wrong with the design. Just stating that I can personally concur that it can happen with these firearms. When it happened to me I didn't tap the assembly on the table that hard either. So its always been in the back of my mind since then.. I know long guns can discharge if dropped and to always be safe. But I do remember that I didn't tap the assembly that hard on the table and don't think it should have happened that easily.

 

[OfficerObie59]

That is my understanding as well. Most long guns do not have a firing pin block. So the firing pin is free to move. In addition, a long-gun firing pin is typically bigger and heavier than a pistol firing pin, so it has more inertia. As a result, it may discharge if dropped.

Lots of people are scared by a cocked-and-locked Series 70 1911, but aren't scared by a loaded long gun. Both are cocked, single-action guns without a firing pin block. But the long gun may well be more likely to discharge if dropped.

All true, but remember the main issue here isn't a free floating pin--it's supposedly that only the trigger and not the sear are locked by the safety in the CFC. So if the sear jerks back even a hair (possibly aggravated by debris between the sear hook and hammer notch) when the gun is dropped and the hammer lets go, the pin hits the primer at full force as if the trigger was actually pulled.

In theory it seems plausible, but it seems to me more likely analogous to the issue with "low number" M1903 Springfield receivers exploding. It's happened causing injury something like a couple dozen times out of over a million of guns.

As for free floating pins, IIRC the Mythbusters did a test with SKS that had free floats to see if a car stereo would at it off. Eventually they had to detonate C4 before they could St t to go off.

 

[Fixxah]

This was just my observation that I thought I would share. I'm not even implying that there is something wrong with the design. Just stating that I can personally concur that it can happen with these firearms. When it happened to me I didn't tap the assembly on the table that hard either. So its always been in the back of my mind since then.. I know long guns can discharge if dropped and to always be safe. But I do remember that I didn't tap the assembly that hard on the table and don't think it should have happened that easily.

Why would you tap/bang a trigger group on anything? You're not cleaning my guns.

 

[M1911]

As for free floating pins, IIRC the Mythbusters did a test with SKS that had free floats to see if a car stereo would at it off. Eventually they had to detonate C4 before they could St t to go off.

I'm not familiar with that episode.

1911s have a firing pin that is not floating, but is retarded by a firing pin retaining spring. In Series 70-style actions, the firing pin is not otherwise restrained from moving. If you drop such a 1911 on its muzzle, the gun stops, but the firing pin has inertia that makes it want to keep moving. If the firing pin's inertia is greater than the strength of the retaining spring, the firing pin can move forward with enough force to fire the gun.

And it doesn't have to be dropped that far for this to happen. Gunsmith Drake Oldham tested this: http://drakesgunworks.com/Drop_Testing.html

So what does this have to do with long guns? Long guns have larger, heavier firing pins than 1911s. So they have more inertia. And they don't even have a firing pin retaining spring to keep them the firing pin off the primer like a 1911. It is probably harder to drop a long gun on the muzzle than a handgun, but I don't for a minute think that a long gun is drop safe.

 

[ThePreBanMan]

Why would you tap/bang a trigger group on anything? You're not cleaning my guns.

Whatever dude. I guess your someone who would have had to be there to appreciate what I did vs. what happened as a result. Not worth my effort explaining what is meant by the term lightly tap. Bang was a word you chose to use - not I.
No offense meant by that - just saying you weren't there - and I don't think you have an understanding of what transpired.

 

[Zappa]

He does not believe anything he did that day was wrong.

“I leaned my gun up. Gun's on safety,” he recalls. “There's not a doubt in my mind that I did not do anything wrong that day.”

IIRC, at least in Mass anyway, leaning a loaded long arm up against a vehicle IS a legal violation.
I've heard of several instances where people have been written up by the game wardens for it.

 

[M1911]

IIRC, at least in Mass anyway, leaning a loaded long arm up against a vehicle IS a legal violation.
I've heard of several instances where people have been written up by the game wardens for it.

Ive heard that to. I don't know whether or not they were true. Supposedly they were charged with transporting a loaded long gun in a vehicle. How you get from a shotgun leaning against a truck to be transported in a vehicle is beyond me.

 

[atmay]

Ive heard that to. I don't know whether or not they were true. Supposedly they were charged with transporting a loaded long gun in a vehicle. How you get from a shotgun leaning against a truck to be transported in a vehicle is beyond me.

This IS mass.gov we're talking about here.

 

[strangenh]

This IS mass.gov we're talking about here.

Same thing in NH. Reason here is the RSA says "in or on" - and thus leaning on = on in F&G's eyes... and they enforce it that way. Even someone target shooting using the trunk as a rest is chargeable in F&G's eyes.

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/xviii/207/207-7.htm

 

[atmay]

Same thing in NH. Reason here is the RSA says "in or on" - and thus leaning on = on in F&G's eyes... and they enforce it that way. Even someone target shooting using the trunk as a rest is chargeable in F&G's eyes.

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/xviii/207/207-7.htm

Well at least your law is clear on the matter. Here in MA, its not "on or in" its "transporting". I have no explanation for gun leaning against parked car = transporting other than "it is mass.gov were talking about".

 

[OfficerObie59]

I'm not familiar with that episode.

No videos I could find, but discussed here:

http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f37/sks-firing-due-vibration-22939/