Rifle in trunk

[KMM696]

Having read 13.01 (1), I concede that it does indeed include transportation. When I discussed this some time ago with my Fire Chief he had told me that 527 CMR 13 did NOT apply to transportation. Hmmm!

I would think your Fire Chief was thinking of 13.06 (1)(b), "527 CMR 13.06 shall not apply to the transportation of small arms ammunition and components.", 13.06 being the entire section covering transportation. I'm not sure that the more general statement of scope in 13.01(1) forces us to apply the storage requirements of 13.04 to transportation.

 

[JGreen]

The transportation requirements are found in 527 CMR 13.11
13.11 contradicts parts of 13.04
You can't make this shit up!

 

[KMM696]

The transportation requirements are found in 527 CMR 13.11
13.11 contradicts parts of 13.04
You can't make this shit up!

Here in MA we've completely lost the expectation that firearms law & regulation will make sense.

 

[EddieCoyle]

I would NOT rely on GOAL's info wrt MGL or CMRs, there are too many items that are wrong. In this case, it is a "good idea" to keep ammo "secured" when not in use, and if there are unlicensed people in the house it indeed must be locked up so they have no access. On the other hand, if one has a powder/ammo permit, there is NO requirement in the CMR to keep your ammo locked up (but see my caution wrt unlicensed people). http://goal.org/masslawpages/ammostorage.html

You are correct that the CMR is all about building storage and has nothing to do with MV transportation. MGL also has no specific requirements wrt transporting ammo other than preventing unlicensed access.

So... you say not to rely on GOAL's info, and yet a few sentences later in the same ****ing post you use a link to the GOAL site to back your shit up?

Like a few others, I'm curious what info GOAL has 'wrong', as well as your source.

I'm not saying GOAL is always right, but you have a history of badmouthing them with nothing to back it up. I'd just like to see if you're doing that again.

 

[Palladin]

crickets

 

[Gonzo]

Anyone who is this concerned about the legality of keeping a rifle in their trunk will never use that rifle in a situation that warrants the use of a rifle.

 

[coachjpg]

You're also storing your ammo, so that needs to be locked up too. Ammo is so expensive now that we'd lock that up anyway...

Again, do you have a cite for that?

I agree that it's a good idea to lock ammo up if it's stored in your car, but it is not mandatory.

527 CMR 13.04(1)(e)Says lock up your ammo when not in use. This is the ammo storage cite.

If you park your car with guns in it, and walk away, I'm told you are storing your guns, and storage rules apply. If gun-storage rules apply, I infer that ammo-storage rules apply also. So you have to lock both your guns and your ammo up.

This is murky stuff. The LEOs in our town expect your ammo to be locked up when not in use, whether it's in your home or in your car. If you're not carrying it or actively shooting, they say the law requires the ammo be locked up. They may be wrong. Proving them wrong would be expensive.

Please understand that I don't like these rules. I'm just trying to figure out how to live my life without committing crimes. It's not supposed to be this hard to understand the rules.

Also, I'm expected to explain these rules to newbies. I'd like to get that right.

 

[colt_fan]

So do you have a lock box in your car fit when you buy ammo?

 

[coachjpg]

So do you have a lock box in your car fit when you buy ammo?

Locked in the trunk is locked up. I have one of those large plastic toolboxes where I keep the ammo I'm taking to the range. If I can't lock it in the trunk, I throw one of those TSA-approved luggage cable padlocks on it. I have about a dozen of those locks that I use where required, on gun cases and ammo boxes.

This is really stupid, I know, but this is my understanding: The Ammo storage laws do not address transportation of ammo, only storage. If you don't leave it in your car, you're not storing it. If you do leave it in your car, it needs to be locked up, either in the trunk or in some kind of box.

Some very smart people tell me my understanding is incorrect. Other very smart people tell me it is correct. I'm telling you what I gather from reading these laws. When I try to drill down on this stuff and discuss it, everyone gets confused. In these posts, I provide pointers to the laws so you can draw your own conclusion.

As has been said before, what the law says, what the law means, what the LEOs think is the law, what the Fire Chief thinks is the law, what the DA thinks is the law, and what the courts think is the law are all very different things.

When I teach this stuff, I cop out. I hand out the latest GOAL pamphlet, and go over it with the students. I can't teach the Mass Basic Firearms Safety class without the GOAL pamphlets.

 

[drgrant]

This is murky stuff. The LEOs in our town expect your ammo to be locked up when not in use, whether it's in your home or in your car.

Please tell me where you live so I can avoid going there at all costs. I've talked to a lot of LEOs about this kind of thing and it's never come up. Most LEOs, even the "not necessarily pro gun" ones I've encountered don't seem to care about this as long as the possessor has some kind of LTC/FID.

-Mike

 

[whacko]

My fire chief told me that >100K rds means you have to be placarded and probably lots of other stuff as well.

The fire chief was paraphrasing. The 100 rounds is probably a guestimate........placarding for hazmat transport is based on NEW (net explosive weight) and if it considered "bulk packaging" or not..........basically how much total powder is actually being transported and how much poweder peer "unit". CFR 49 is the reference (I have a good deal of experience with it) and there are tables in the CFR for determining NEW and if it is considered "bulk" transport or not. Form my experience doing HAZMAT certification (military and civilian) that 100 round number is a bit low..........I certainly hope so as I blow the hell out of that limit every damn time I go to the range

 

[namedpipes]

. . . From my experience doing HAZMAT certification (military and civilian) that 100 round number is a bit low..........I certainly hope so as I blow the hell out of that limit every damn time I go to the range

Even Deputy Fife exceeds 100 rounds on a range trip, but Len said 100K rounds.

If you're exceeding 100 rounds on a range trip, yeah so what?

If you're exceeding 100k rounds on a range trip, you're doing it right.

 

[Len-2A Training]

527 CMR 13.04(1)(e)Says lock up your ammo when not in use. This is the ammo storage cite.

If you park your car with guns in it, and walk away, I'm told you are storing your guns, and storage rules apply. If gun-storage rules apply, I infer that ammo-storage rules apply also. So you have to lock both your guns and your ammo up.

This is murky stuff. The LEOs in our town expect your ammo to be locked up when not in use, whether it's in your home or in your car. If you're not carrying it or actively shooting, they say the law requires the ammo be locked up. They may be wrong. Proving them wrong would be expensive.

Please understand that I don't like these rules. I'm just trying to figure out how to live my life without committing crimes. It's not supposed to be this hard to understand the rules.

Also, I'm expected to explain these rules to newbies. I'd like to get that right.

The authority for 527 CMR 13 falls upon the State Fire Marshal not the police. My info on how that CMR is interpreted (and I'll admit there are some things in there that certainly appear contradictory) was a few lengthy conversations with my Fire Chief.

- He told me that the CMR is all about storage in buildings and that Fed Regs dictate transportation but only fall into play if you are transporting 100K rds or more. I've not investigated this any further as a non-dealer can't store >100K in a residence anyway, so it is a moot point. Therefore "storage" or "transportation" of ammo in a MV seems to not have any laws/regs that impact us. [Again I caution, if unlicensed parties can access it, yes that would violate the law that PDs can enforce.]

- 527 CMR 13.04(1)(e) ONLY applies if you do NOT have an ammo/powder permit from your FD. Nothing in the section for "with a permit" mentions anything about locking up ammo in a building. Oversight? Maybe, but it just isn't there.

- I know for a fact that numerous LEOs have stumbled on "loose ammo" when in people's homes, etc. and looked for a law that would allow them to prosecute. The self-proclaimed LE authority on MA gun law has pointed out that no such law exists. [Sorry, I can't provide a citation to prove that a law is non-existent. ]

- MA laws and regs are intentionally vague and difficult to comprehend. This is "job security" for lawyers and judges. So, even absent a law/regulation violation, I agree that one could be run thru the legal wringer and absent super competent counsel ($$$) one may well be convicted or run into bankruptcy to take a plea bargain.

Even Deputy Fife exceeds 100 rounds on a range trip, but Len said 100K rounds.

If you're exceeding 100 rounds on a range trip, yeah so what?

If you're exceeding 100k rounds on a range trip, you're doing it right.

Indeed! If he's shooting off 100K rds/trip, I want to be his new best friend!!

 

[whacko]

Even Deputy Fife exceeds 100 rounds on a range trip, but Len said 100K rounds.

If you're exceeding 100 rounds on a range trip, yeah so what?

If you're exceeding 100k rounds on a range trip, you're doing it right.

Ah shit.....I missed the K!!!! My bad. Thanks for pointing that out.......bototm line is when it comes to hazmat certifying for transport it is not "round count" it is net explosive weight combined with how it is packaged. I've actually certified containerized shipments of ammunition and explosives with amounts that would probably have some of you guys drooling on yourselves.

100k to the range I have never done......I have done over 2K though!!!!!

 

[EJFudd]

If you park your car with guns in it, and walk away, I'm told you are storing your guns, and storage rules apply. If gun-storage rules apply, I infer that ammo-storage rules apply also. So you have to lock both your guns and your ammo up.

The authority for 527 CMR 13 falls upon the State Fire Marshal not the police. My info on how that CMR is interpreted (and I'll admit there are some things in there that certainly appear contradictory) was a few lengthy conversations with my Fire Chief.

- He told me that the CMR is all about storage in buildings and that Fed Regs dictate transportation but only fall into play if you are transporting 100K rds or more. I've not investigated this any further as a non-dealer can't store >100K in a residence anyway, so it is a moot point. Therefore "storage" or "transportation" of ammo in a MV seems to not have any laws/regs that impact us. [Again I caution, if unlicensed parties can access it, yes that would violate the law that PDs can enforce.]

I have to go along with Len's interpretation here. 527 CMR 13 is a fire prevention regulation and clearly about the storage of ammunition and related components in buildings and structures, not vehicles. I have found no definition of "structure", either in the reg itself or in various online dictionaries, that includes vehicles.

- MA laws and regs are intentionally and unintentionally vague and difficult to comprehend.

Fixed it for you.

 

[45collector]

If a vehicle is considered a structure, then police should need a warrant to search any part of someone's car.

 

[mike01824]

Not to derail this cluster of a thread, but when selecting a trunk gun: are certain guns better than others? Guns with less moving parts? Wood furniture in cold? Surface rust concerns? What kinds of things should be considered?

 

[45collector]

You're not derailing it at all. Myself and many other took it way off track several pages ago.

IMO the main thing that should be considered when figuring out what gun you will be leaving in your trunk/ truck/ etc, is how much do you care about dings, scratches, and marks in the finish and stock?

 

[whacko]

You're not derailing it at all. Myself and many other took it way off track several pages ago.

IMO the main thing that should be considered when figuring out what gun you will be leaving in your trunk/ truck/ etc, is how much do you care about dings, scratches, and marks in the finish and stock?

MOSIN Carbine (m44 T53 M38)........that should get you home and who gives a shit if it gets dinged up.

 

[45collector]

MOSIN Carbine (m44 T53 M38)........that should get you home and who gives a shit if it gets dinged up.

For realz. And it should be dinged to hell before you even purchase it.

 

[xtry51]

Anyone who is this concerned about the legality of keeping a rifle in their trunk will never use that rifle in a situation that warrants the use of a rifle.

This all the way.

Stop talking about what police may or may not think is legal.

 

[Palladin]

Anyone who is this concerned about the legality of keeping a rifle in their trunk will never use that rifle in a situation that warrants the use of a rifle.

QFTFT

 

[xtry51]

Should you have a rifle in your trunk? Yes.

Why? Because your pistol is only a weapon that lets you fight your way to a rifle.

 

[ColdDayInHell]

Should you have a rifle in your trunk? Yes.

Why? Because your pistol is only a weapon that lets you fight your way to a rifle.

This. That was a pretty good out yourself thread, I think edmorseiii started that one.

 

[45collector]

Should you have a rifle in your trunk? Yes.

Why? Because your pistol is only a weapon that lets you fight your way to a rifle.

In my case, whatever's on my hip is going to be a lot more useful than the .22 single shot rifle in my SUV. I'd thought of keeping an AK or AR in a pellican case in my ride all the time, but honestly I'd much rather have to report a single shot .22, rather than an evil extra killy "assault rifle", if my car were ever stolen.

And anyhow, if the 100+ rounds in loaded mags of 9mm or .45 or whatever I'm carrying in the car aren't enough to get me home to a real rifle, I'm probably f*cked anyways.

Oh and don't forget that you guys in NH don't have to worry about every single one of your guns being confiscated if just one is stolen from you.

 

[Palladin]

In my case, whatever's on my hip is going to be a lot more useful than the .22 single shot rifle in my SUV. I'd thought of keeping an AK or AR in a pellican case in my ride all the time, but honestly I'd much rather have to report a single shot .22, rather than an evil extra killy "assault rifle", if my car were ever stolen.

And anyhow, if the 100+ rounds in loaded mags of 9mm or .45 or whatever I'm carrying in the car aren't enough to get me home to a real rifle, I'm probably f*cked anyways.

Oh and don't forget that you guys in NH don't have to worry about every single one of your guns being confiscated if just one is stolen from you.

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vb...fle-in-trunk?p=4199527&viewfull=1#post4199527

 

[45collector]

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vb...fle-in-trunk?p=4199527&viewfull=1#post4199527

Looks cool enough. But if I were going to mount something in my SUV to secure a long gun, it would not be anything that required a wiring harness to be installed.

 

[Palladin]

Looks cool enough. But if I were going to mount something in my SUV to secure a long gun, it would not be anything that required a wiring harness to be installed.

you can eliminate the button release, mine had that and a key...so either would work. And it was mounted under the back deck, if you opened the trunk looking for something to steal, you wouldn't even notice it.