SBR 10.5 inch: Put on new shorter 8 inch upper?

[Reptile]

If you have a SBR with a stamp and have the length listed as 10.5 inches - could you pop on a new upper of the same caliber that is only 8 inches?

How about removing the stock and putting on a PDW stock?

Overall length will be shorter.

Is that legal?

 

[steve8140]

Once you have the stamp, you can change anything you want, you can make it longer, shorter, a different caliber, change the stock, whatever. You can have as many different uppers as you want.
It is recommended if you make any permanent changes to write the ATF and notify but it is not required.

 

[boilermaker]

I have been wondering this as well, I thought you could go longer but not shorter than your paperwork?

 

[JRT]

As long as you can return it to the specified barrel length you do not need to notify the ATF.

 

[ScottS]

As long as you can return it to the specified barrel length you do not need to notify the ATF.

Not true. There’s no requirement to be able to return to the original configuration. There is never a need to notify the ATF. As was stated above, the ATF recommends you notify them of permanent changes (so they can keep an accurate registry), but there’s no requirement to do so.

 

[JRT]

Not true. There’s no requirement to be able to return to the original configuration. There is never a need to notify the ATF. As was stated above, the ATF recommends you notify them of permanent changes (so they can keep an accurate registry), but there’s no requirement to do so.

Thank you, I was clearly misinformed.

 

[ScottS]

Thank you, I was clearly misinformed.

No sweat. It's one of the common (if not the most common) misconceptions of NFA.

 

[67ray]

I'll add that when it is time for you to transfer to someone else, make sure the form 4 matches exactly the same as the one you bought it on. Otherwise there will be delays.

 

[ScottS]

I'll add that when it is time for you to transfer to someone else, make sure the form 4 matches exactly the same as the one you bought it on. Otherwise there could be delays.

Unless you have first hand knowledge of such a delay, I'd say "could be." Conventional wisdom/experience on this seems to be serial number and model trump any OAL change, especially in a Form 1 to Form 4 transfer. (I mean, who buys an SBR?)

 

[67ray]

Unless you have first hand knowledge of such a delay, I'd say "could be." Conventional wisdom/experience on this seems to be serial number and model trump any OAL change, especially in a Form 1 to Form 4 transfer. (I mean, who buys an SBR?)

In fact I do have first hand knowledge. Have been in many NFA transactions and it can suck. Has to send pictures, then send pictures again, and wait, and wait some more. Trust me you want to keep everything the same especially now that Chesapeake is doing the forms.

 

[KBCraig]

You can put a 24" varmint barrel and lead-loaded A2 stock if you want... but it will still be a registered SBR.

 

[steve8140]

You can put a 24" varmint barrel and lead-loaded A2 stock if you want... but it will still be a registered SBR.

Yes it will still be registered as an SBR, but by putting a standard 16” or longer barrel on it will allow you to cross state lines without submitting other forms.

 

[ScottS]

You can put a 24" varmint barrel and lead-loaded A2 stock if you want... but it will still be a registered SBR.

Technically, it's only a registered SBR when it's in an SBR configuration. In a non-SBR configuration (24" varmint barrel) it's simply a Title I weapon. You can sell it as such, take it across state lines, etc.

If, for example, you chose to engrave the 10.5" upper instead of the lower receiver (which most people choose not to do, but they could), once you swapped a 16+" barrel onto the weapon, there wouldn't even be any engraving to visibility indicate it was ever a Title II weapon.

 

[Asaltweapon]

Technically, it's only a registered SBR when it's in an SBR configuration. In a non-SBR configuration (24" varmint barrel) it's simply a Title I weapon. You can sell it as such, take it across state lines, etc.

If, for example, you chose to engrave the 10.5" upper instead of the lower receiver (which most people choose not to do, but they could), once you swapped a 16+" barrel onto the weapon, there wouldn't even be any engraving to visibility indicate it was ever a Title II weapon.

I was unaware that the upper could be engraved as it has no serial number.

 

[ScottS]

I was unaware that the upper could be engraved as it has no serial number.

I meant to say "barrel," instead of "upper." Fingers got ahead of brain.

The location of the serial number has nothing to do with where you engrave the Maker's information.

 

[pupchow]

...

If, for example, you chose to engrave the 10.5" upper instead of the lower receiver (which most people choose not to do, but they could), once you swapped a 16+" barrel onto the weapon, there wouldn't even be any engraving to visibility indicate it was ever a Title II weapon.

If the barrel of the registered SBR is engraved, is there any burden if you swap a different SBR upper onto the registered lower?

 

[ScottS]

If the barrel of the registered SBR is engraved, is there any burden if you swap a different SBR upper onto the registered lower?

Yes. The subsequent SBR will not be engraved with the Maker's information. The easy-swap modularity of an AR15 is a large reason (the reason?) why most people choose to engrave the receiver, rather than the barrel.

 

[JRT]

If the barrel of the registered SBR is engraved, is there any burden if you swap a different SBR upper onto the registered lower?

At the basis of this question is a long running disagreement on the requirement to engrave. Many hold the belief that a literal reading of the law says engraving is only required if you intend to sell the SBR. The one thing about NFA weapons is their are many opinions. Just up this thread I was corrected on the requirement to be able to return the device to the original NFA configuration. I have been told this by dozens of people and maybe even on the phone with ATF in WV. Thing is, it's not true, you don't have to be ale to return the rifle to the original configuration. Be consistent, do your best to follow the rules and consult a lawyer if you about to deviate from the norm. In the end, if the ATF comes a knocking it probably isn't because you swapped out your engraved barrel for a non-engraved one.

 

[yanquidog]

If you Switch out a 10” for an 8” on your sbr.
you still have the original 10” upper in your possession as well as random complete lowers
What do you call that?
constructive possession or something?
Potentially an undocumented 2nd sbr, or am I thinking too deep on this?

 

[JRT]

If you Switch out a 10” for an 8” on your sbr.
you still have the original 10” upper in your possession as well as random complete lowers
What do you call that?
constructive possession or something?
Potentially an undocumented 2nd sbr, or am I thinking too deep on this?

Way too deep if you own a legally registered SBR.

 

[67ray]

Technically, it's only a registered SBR when it's in an SBR configuration. In a non-SBR configuration (24" varmint barrel) it's simply a Title I weapon. You can sell it as such, take it across state lines, etc.

That last part is false you can not sell it as a Title 1 weapon until you have taken it off the Title 2 registry.

 

[JRT]

That last part is false you can not sell it as a Title 1 weapon until you have taken it off the Title 2 registry.

You don't have to wait for a reply from ATF. Send a certified letter and sell the title 1 rifle. You are also forfeiting your tax stamp.

 

[ScottS]

That last part is false you can not sell it as a Title 1 weapon until you have taken it off the Title 2 registry.

Not true. The ATF has said an SBR is only an SBR (Title II) weapon when in the Title II configuration. When not in a Title II configuration, it is, in fact, a Title I weapon, and can be handled, transported, and transferred as such. That's why I can plop a 16" barrel onto my SBR and transport it across state lines without a 5320.20.

A machine gun is always a machine gun, but an SBR (or SBS) is only a Title II weapon when in Title II drag.

 

[ScottS]

If you Switch out a 10” for an 8” on your sbr.
you still have the original 10” upper in your possession as well as random complete lowers
What do you call that?
constructive possession or something?
Potentially an undocumented 2nd sbr, or am I thinking too deep on this?

Constructive possession means you have no way to make a legal configuration given the parts you have. You have a 10.5" upper, but no registered lower or pistol lower, then you have no way to make a legal configuration. But if you have at least one registered lower or pistol lower, you're good to go. It's not a one-for-one lowers to uppers thing.

 

[67ray]

Not true. The ATF has said an SBR is only an SBR (Title II) weapon when in the Title II configuration. When not in a Title II configuration, it is, in fact, a Title I weapon, and can be handled, transported, and transferred as such. That's why I can plop a 16" barrel onto my SBR and transport it across state lines without a 5320.20.

A machine gun is always a machine gun, but an SBR (or SBS) is only a Title II weapon when in Title II drag.

Not to create another NES pissing contest but you are wrong. Once you have registered the weapon as Title 2 you may not sell it as a Title 1 weapon unless you have done your part to un-SBR it.

 

[ScottS]

Not to create another NES pissing contest but you are wrong. Once you have registered the weapon as Title 2 you may not sell it as a Title 1 weapon unless you have done your part to un-SBR it.

Well, in non-NES fashion, I'm not going to just say "you are wrong," here's an ATF cite:

ATF Home
Firearms
Frequently Asked Questions
National Firearms Act (NFA) — Short Barreled Rifles and Shotguns

Q: If I remove the short barrel from the registered SBR or SBS, is the receiver still subject to NFA transfer and possession regulations?

If the possessor retains control over the barrel or other parts required to assemble the SBR or SBS, the firearm would still be subject to NFA transfer and possession regulations. ATF recommends contacting State law enforcement officials to ensure compliance with state and local law.

In addition, the ATF letter on SBR's dated Dec 11, 2009 stated that if you have an SBR and want to sell as a title 1 firearm you may do so if you make a change to the weapon that would make it fall outside of the definition of an SBR and you do not retain control over the parts to reassemble it into a SBR. You are not required to notify the ATF of the change or the transfer but it is a good idea to let them know.

I now have to scrounge to find the actual letter and upload it...damn internet.

So, while I'm doing that, maybe you can provide citations to back up your position.

ETA: More, from the NFA Handbook

Section 2.5 Removal of firearms from the scope of the NFA by modification/elimination of components.

Firearms, except machineguns and silencers, that are subject to the NFA fall within the various definitions due to specific features. If the particular feature that causes a firearm to be regulated by the NFA is eliminated or modified, the resulting weapon is no longer an NFA weapon. For example, a shotgun with a barrel length of 15 inches is an NFA weapon. If the 15- inch barrel is removed and disposed of, the remaining firearm is not subject to the NFA because it has no barrel.
Likewise, if the 15 inch barrel is modified by permanently attaching an extension such that the barrel length is at least 18 inches and the overall length of the weapon is at least 26 inches, the modified firearm is not subject to the NFA.

 

[JRT]

Not to create another NES pissing contest but you are wrong. Once you have registered the weapon as Title 2 you may not sell it as a Title 1 weapon unless you have done your part to un-SBR it.

Not a pissing contest but you are wrong on this one. Send the letter like I said up thread.

 

[67ray]

Yup xactly send the certified letter

 

[ScottS]

Yup xactly send the certified letter

Recommended, but not required. And there is no requirement to send that letter before transfer of the weapon as a Title I firearm. As the NFA Handbook and the ATF themselves quoted above state, in a non-SBR configuration, the weapon is "no longer subject to NFA transfer and possession regulations."

You're propagating bad information. And I'm still waiting for any citation to back up your claim.