Smith M&P

[Coyote33]

...
I know of one store that has a M&P in stock, but it cannot be sold because 1) the trigger is less than 10 lbs and 2) the magazines are standard capacity magazines. I believe he is simply waiting on the shipment of Mass-compliant M&Ps, not any action by the AG.

It has been so long since I've gone through these hoops, but does 1) make it NOT MA compliant? What is the capacity you reference in 2)?

So, are you implying that the AG now does not need to do anything for a pistol to be MA compliant?

 

[M1911]

See: http://www.ago.state.ma.us/sp.cfm?pageid=1170

Specifically, see: "* Does the handgun have built-in childproofing protection (Section 16.05(2))? If you are unsure whether the handgun meets the Attorney General's childproofing requirements, you can ask the manufacturer. A handgun will meet these childproofing requirements if it contains a mechanism that effectively precludes an average five year-old child from operating the handgun when it is ready to fire, including but not limited to: a trigger resistance of at least a ten-pound pull; a firing mechanism that makes it so that an average five year-old child's hands are too small to operate the handgun; a design where the handgun requires a series of multiple motions in order to fire the handgun; and/or a hammer deactivation device."

The M&P does not have a decocker ("hammer deactivation device") or a manual safety ("requires a series of multiple motions"). Therefore, if the trigger pull is less than 10 lbs, I believe that the AG would rule it to be non-compliant.

2) Standard capacity (>10) versus crippled capacity (10 or less). I don't remember what the standard capacity was of the full-size .40S&W that I handled -- something like 15 rounds. Since these magazines were constructed well after 1994, they are of post-ban construction, so the standard capacity mags are illegal in MA (except for LEO).

So, are you implying that the AG now does not need to do anything for a pistol to be MA compliant?

It is my understanding that the AG normally doesn't do anything in this process. The AG doesn't issue "approvals". The AG doesn't distribute a list of approved guns. The AG's office won't tell a manufacturer that their gun meets or does not meet the AG's regulations. What the AG does is threaten lawsuits if someone sells a gun that he rules is not compliant.

I believe, therefore, that the only thing holding up the sale of M&P in MA, now that they're on the EOPS list, is S&W.

I haven't been close to this process -- just second and third hand information. Perhaps Scrivener can comment, as he has had more experience in this area than I.

 

[JonJ]

After it makes the EOPS approved roster, it's easy to understand.
The AG makes his regulations. If the manufacturer wants to sell here, he must comply with the regulations. When the manufacturer feels that he has met the AG's regulations, he offers it for sale here.

 

[adweisbe]

I am really looking forward to the .45 version. I have been wanting a polymer framed gun for some time and .45 is my bag. One rumor was that it was going to have the same grip size and a ten round capacity, will have to see if that pans out. I wish they would hurry up and get the 10lb trigger unit into production so I can buy one and get a gunsmith to fix it ;-)

 

[Coyote33]

After it makes the EOPS approved roster, it's easy to understand.
The AG makes his regulations. If the manufacturer wants to sell here, he must comply with the regulations. When the manufacturer feels that he has met the AG's regulations, he offers it for sale here.

So, is there ambiguity as suggested in an earlier post, or not? Do the dealers have to then do something above and beyond the manufacturer?

 

[M1911]

Regarding ambiguity -- there's plenty. The regulations are unclear. What does "multiple motions" mean?

Dealers don't have to do anything above and beyond the manufacturer. In fact, there is nothing that they can do, because the AG's office won't answer any questions. However, it is up to the dealer to decide whether the manufacturer is correct when the manufacturer says that their gun meets the AG's regulations, since the dealer's behind is on the line if the AG disagrees.

That said, I suspect that once S&W is producing guns that they believe comply with the AG's regulations (10+ lb trigger and 10 round magazines), we will see them for sale here in MA. Dunno when that will happen.

 

[Scrivener]

Two MPs are on the newest list but still have not been approved by the Attorney General. Who knows when he will decide, if ever, to approve them for sale.

As has been discussed here at length, ad nauseum, many, many, MANY times here, the AFR is not "approved by the Attorney General." Those who still claim otherwise are clearly clueless.

Having been approved by GCAB, the only remaining step is for EOPS to approve GCAB's additions and issue the next publication of the roster. Period.

 

[M1911]

Having been approved by GCAB, the only remaining step is for EOPS to approve GCAB's additions and issue the next publication of the roster.

Since the roster is already on the EOPS web site: http://www.mass.gov/Eeops/docs/chsb/approved_firearms_roster_10-2006.pdf

doesn't that mean it has already issued the roster and it is ready to go?

 

[Executive]

Once a handgun is on the EOPS Approved Firearm Roster it is acceptable to be sold by a "purveyor" of firearms in MA if the handgun also has:

child-safety features
940 CMR 16.05(2), (4)
load indicators and magazine safety disconnects for semi-automatic handguns
940 CMR 16.05(3), (4)
tamper-resistant serial numbers
940 CMR 16.03

If the above criteria are met, then the Consumer Crusader (AG) will have no issues with the sale.
My guess is that S&W is well aware of this situation and is manufacturing M&Ps accordingly. I will also make an unsolicited prediction that the .45 version of this firearm will be entered into the next armed forces pistol bid competition.

 

[Scrivener]

Since the roster is already on the EOPS web site: http://www.mass.gov/Eeops/docs/chsb/approved_firearms_roster_10-2006.pdf

doesn't that mean it has already issued the roster and it is ready to go?

NO. As the two M&Ps were approved at the November GCAB meeting, the October roster will obviously not include them,

 

[M1911]

Scrivener:

Please follow this link: http://www.mass.gov/Eeops/docs/chsb/approved_firearms_roster_10-2006.pdf

At the top, it reads "Approved Firearms Roster 10-2006". Page 8 has two entries that read: S&W M&P 9mm, S&W M&P .40 S&W.

Is that not the October roster? Does that not include the S&W M&P?

 

[Lugnut]

I see it there.

 

[adweisbe]

I see it there.

Me too. The appearance of the M&P on the roster has been mentioned before on the forum. Perhaps a search is in order

[EDIT]I believe they are waiting for S&W to produce units with the 10lbs trigger unit and hidden serial number and some form of LCI (does the regular M&P have one?). They can't quite repackage regular M&Ps and sell them here.

 

[kendall-op]

I think gun shops are waiting for shipments of the mp from SW I maybe wrong on this.

 

[calsdad]

I am hoping for my Class A to come thru shortly so I have been trying to narrow down what my first purchase is going to be. Went up to the Manchester Firing Line tonite and shot a Glock 19 and an S&W M&P .40 side by side to see which I liked best. Turns out I think I like the Smith and Wesson better - now I read that they are not available to us civilians at the moment - so I have to wait until January?

If I can't get an M&P I might have to buy a Glock19 to tide me over until then. God I hate this state sometimes.

 

[patio]

If I can't get an M&P I might have to buy a Glock19 to tide me over until then. God I hate this state sometimes.

Owning both I would say save your money and buy the M&P when it becomes available. Why buy a used gun for more than the price of a new gun? Doesn't make a ton of sense if you want the M&P more. Really, you should buy both.

 

[Scrivener]

Scrivener:

Please follow this link: http://www.mass.gov/Eeops/docs/chsb/approved_firearms_roster_10-2006.pdf

At the top, it reads "Approved Firearms Roster 10-2006". Page 8 has two entries that read: S&W M&P 9mm, S&W M&P .40 S&W.

Is that not the October roster? Does that not include the S&W M&P?

Being, as was already noted, the October roster, it cannot possibly include the two models approved at the November meeting.

Here's the source of the confusion: Per the observation of the GCAB chairman, S&W is certifying guns that could easily come in under the "substantially similar" certification. So, minor variations in models get certified as if they were new submissions, making for some confusion as to what is really required and which model M&P was approved when.

Ain't nuthin' simple in this state........

 

[M1911]

Since some M&P models have been approved previously, but no M&P models are currently being sold in MA (to us plebians -- LEO sales are a different story), is it therefore fair to say that the reason that no M&P models are currently being sold in this state to us plebians is due to S&W, not due to some state approval being required?

And therefore, isn't it true that the statement:

Having been approved by GCAB, the only remaining step is for EOPS to approve GCAB's additions and issue the next publication of the roster. Period.

could be misunderstood to imply that no M&Ps can be sold in MA until additional approval has been given, when in fact no such approval is required for the two M&P models on the October roster to be sold in MA?

 

[calsdad]

Owning both I would say save your money and buy the M&P when it becomes available. Why buy a used gun for more than the price of a new gun? Doesn't make a ton of sense if you want the M&P more. Really, you should buy both.

I thought about waiting but winter is coming and I want to have something to shoot with soon after the LTC comes thru. It's not like I don't like the Glock - I just liked the M&P better. Plus it gives me an excuse to have two guns - and who knows when the M&P will really be available to us civilians - it might be a long wait. It does piss me off a little that because of the jackass rules in this state I can't just buy what I want but moving to New Hampshire will be more expensive for me in the short run than just buying another gun.

 

[Scrivener]

Since some M&P models have been approved previously, but no M&P models are currently being sold in MA (to us plebians -- LEO sales are a different story), is it therefore fair to say that the reason that no M&P models are currently being sold in this state to us plebians is due to S&W, not due to some state approval being required?

And therefore, isn't it true that the statement: could be misunderstood to imply that no M&Ps can be sold in MA until additional approval has been given, when in fact no such approval is required for the two M&P models on the October roster to be sold in MA?

A gun on the AFR is legal to sell in Mass. unless and until the AG finds (fabricates?) a reason to declare it non-compliant.

 

[FeeBear]

A gun on the AFR is legal to sell in Mass. unless and until the AG finds (fabricates?) a reason to declare it non-compliant.

I am so glad I studied Engineering, the law and politics confusses me.

Fee

 

[csharpdev]

I am so glad I studied Engineering, the law and politics confusses me.

Fee

If common sense applied to law and politics we wouldn't need lawers and professional politicians... It's just job security.

 

[Scrivener]

If common sense applied to law and politics we wouldn't need lawers [sic[ and professional politicians... It's just job security.

"Common sense" isn't. Neither is a sense of what is fair, reasonable or just, or a sense of duty to enforce those standards.

Law and police are the consequences of those defects in human nature.

 

[FeeBear]

"Common sense" isn't. Neither is a sense of what is fair, reasonable or just, or a sense of duty to enforce those standards.

Law and police are the consequences of those defects in human nature.

Hence why I like Engineering. Right and Wrong is more about does it work or not.

 

[Scrivener]

Hence why I like Engineering. Right and Wrong is more about does it work or not.

It also requires math skills, which I lack.

Hence my choice of the Liberal Arts.

 

[Coyote33]

GCAB, EOPS, AG, too many hands in the pie.

Dealer, manufacturer, lists.

Is there no one clear place outlining this whole process?


Let me see if I get this right:

ABC company builds a gun.
They need to declare it meets the EOPS requirements.
The EOPS tests it and it makes this "roster".
Where does the GCAB come in?
Then the AG puts it against another list?
THEN, a dealer will sell it and the AG might or might not allow it? Which ones are currently for sale (as new) in MA? Not all of one of these rosters, I am thinking from the sounds of it.

 

[Mass-diver]

GCAB, EOPS, AG, too many hands in the pie.

Dealer, manufacturer, lists.

Is there no one clear place outlining this whole process?


Let me see if I get this right:

ABC company builds a gun.
They need to declare it meets the EOPS requirements.
The EOPS tests it and it makes this "roster".
Where does the GCAB come in?
Then the AG puts it against another list?
THEN, a dealer will sell it and the AG might or might not allow it? Which ones are currently for sale (as new) in MA? Not all of one of these rosters, I am thinking from the sounds of it.

It's intentionally unclear to discourage gun manufatures from making pistols for for MA. As a gun ban tactic, it's worked very well.

 

[M1911]

The EOPS tests it and it makes this "roster".

No, EOPS does no testing. The manufacturer tests it at their expense (generally contracting a testing laboratory to do the actual testing) and submits the test results. I believe this goes to EOPS.

Where does the GCAB come in?

I believe the GCAB reviews the submittals from the manufacturers and recommends to EOPS whether to put the gun on the roster. Perhaps Scrivener can fill us in on these details.

Then the AG puts it against another list?

If the AG's office maintains a list, they do not admit to it and do not publish it. Nor will they tell a manufacturer whether there gun meets the AGs requirements or does not meet the requirements.

 

[Scrivener]

No, EOPS does no testing. The manufacturer tests it at their expense (generally contracting a testing laboratory to do the actual testing) and submits the test results. I believe this goes to EOPS.

Close, but no cigar. The testing MUST be done at one of the few labs Mass. approved for that purpose.

Test results go DIRECTLY to GCAB.

I believe the GCAB reviews the submittals from the manufacturers and recommends to EOPS whether to put the gun on the roster.

It reviews tests from the labs and Functional Design Equivalent reports; those approved are sent to EOPS for inclusion on the roster.

If the AG's office maintains a list, they do not admit to it and do not publish it. Nor will they tell a manufacturer whether there [sic] gun meets the AG[']s requirements or does not meet the requirements.

That's about it.

 

[PistolPete]

So how about that M&P????

Can we say Thread drift???