So why hasn't MA banned all guns entirely?

[lagrangian]

Given the hammerlock the Dems have had on government in this state for so long, and how anti-gun so many of them are, how has it come about that we're still allowed to own guns?

Are there really that many pro-gunners (or at least non-anti-gunners) in the MA legislature? Is there some ancient Supreme Judicial Court ruling that prevents the Fools on Beacon Hill from taking away all our rights? Good lobbying by GOAL? Something else?

(This is a serious question -- I'm honestly curious why our rights haven't been completely taken away here (though obviously glad as hell they haven't been!) and what legal basis, if any, prevents that from happening.)

 

[Gabe]

I'm guessing. Anti-gun sentiment didn't really start until the mid-twentieth century. Our legislative process moves slowly. So even though we still have the right to own guns, Massachusetts is on the bleeding edge of anti-gun legislation (Kalifornia, New Jersey, New York and us are fighting for first place apparently). It's just that the bleeding edge of a glacier isn't that much faster than the rest of it.

 

[greycar]

Don't rush them. They're getting there.

 

[jhrosier]

The Socialist B**tards don't have the stomach for a good fight. They hope to accomplish the same result through incrementalism. None of this cr*p ever happens in the light of day. They scurry around like cockroaches and pass "emergency" legislation in the dark of night.

 

[MassMark]

There may be a few that still keep alive in the back of their brain matter the possibilities of an uprising. Though here in Massachusetts, the birthplace of revolution, people sadly have become accustomed to rolling over and taking it....

 

[LoginName]

Because while they might be stupid... they're not that stupid.

I really should rephrase that though... they're not at all "stupid", they're actually quite clever.

While they would like to see a total ban on all firearms in this state (or this country), it's something they'll never openly admit to.

They know damn well that a total ban on firearms is unrealistic and unachievable (even countries with some of the worst anti-gun laws imaginable don't have a total ban).

With that in mind, their current agenda isn't to really to ban firearms... it's to make it as difficult, expensive and restrictive as possible for owning one. So much so, that to the average person (and gun owning person), that it becomes prohibitive by choice not to own a firearm.

My favorite claim(s) from the anti-gun crowd is the usual BS nonsense...

"We (I), support the 2nd amendment, but there is no legitimate need to own an assault rifle (or it's not needed for hunting).

"We (I), stand behind the 2nd amendment, but what possible reason (if not
for criminal intent), does anyone need to purchase more than one handgun a month for"?

"We (I), believe in Americas gun hertitage, but "common sense" dictates that open sales of .50 caliber "sniper rifles" should be prohibited".

Ad nauseam.

Gradually the "common sense" legislation acceptance slips in and while you/we/I would still have the right to own some firearms, it's not even a genuine right anymore... it's a sanctioned right.

 

[Lugnut]

Login's right on the money. Right on the money.

Gotta just keep with the fight and not give up- no matter what. Support GOAL and the NRA. Be an ambasador to the 2nd Ammendment and all shooting sports. People can blame and make fun of MA, NY and CA... but don't kid yourself- they are just trying to get a beachfront. Once they get MA, CA, NY does anyone really think it will stop there????

 

[Ripach]

Login's right on the money. Right on the money.

Gotta just keep with the fight and not give up- no matter what. Support GOAL and the NRA. Be an ambasador to the 2nd Ammendment and all shooting sports.

+1
And also lets all get off our collective asses and vote, as I have said before I feel if every gun owner showed up to the polls and voted pro 2nd Amendment it would be a landslide victory in our favor. Don't vote Dem. just because your daddy did.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Do a little research on the referendum in 1976. Google might help (not sure, never tried).

There was a ballot question to BAN ALL HANDGUNS IN MA. It failed at the ballot box.

I wouldn't take bets today however!

- Media is much more vociferous that guns cause crime.
- Schools are now Brady propaganda tools.
- MANY fewer hunters in MA and fewer places to shoot/hunt.
- MANY fewer gun owners in MA. 1.5Million permits in 1998, today ~300K!

 

[Ripach]

Len,

while I'm really not sure about the numbers if 1.5 mil. had permits in '98 I'd be willing to bet most of the numbers drop occured when the process changed and alot of the FID cards expired. some of them probably still own guns, legal or not. And with low voter turnout being the norm in this day and age I'm pretty sure we could "shock & awe" a few of them at the polls.
either way I stand by my get out and vote mantra

 

[MassMark]

Therein lies the problem. I often equate my experiences with gun owners with my experience as a healthcare union organizer. I would make housecalls to hospital, nursing home and mental health employees - from nurses to housekeeping. All - and I mean all would talk endlessly over coffee and cigarettes about how sick they were about being ignored, underpaid, unappreciated and oppressed by their employers, the state and the healthcare system. They would ramble about the Big Dig and road projects and being overlooked by the legislature for a cost of living increase. I would tell them: "Come with us then - we're going to rally at Beacon Hill". I would visit 150 employees, 7 would show up for the bus. I gave a speech on Beacon Hill to a crowd of 200 out of 10's of thousands who were informed the rally would be taking place. Weld probably sat in his office and laughed his ass off... Still, I would go back and listen to the excuses: "Oh, it was THAT day??" "My daughter had soccer practice" "I get sick on busses" - on and on ad nauseam. I would then say: "Okay then, sorry you missed it, but we really could use you on the informational picket at the hospital - we're also doing a letter writing campaign to Ted Kennedy and John Olver to try and get them to act". "Ted Kennedy? Oh, I love Ted Kennedy - you're not going to make him mad are you???" You would have thought I was committing blasphemy. Again, no one would show and a handfull of us would stand in the rain and look like idiots - powerless - voiceless.

A huge chunk of gun owners are the same way - sorry to say it. Many talk the talk, but when it comes to walking the walk, (even to the voting booth), they go the other way. Some hunters think: "It will never happen to me - let them have those friggin assault rifles". Others may think that their vote will do no good - after all Massachusetts is run by Liberals. Few realize that en masse, we can rattle some cages. Still, when you see that out of a census of 12,000 gun owners that 5.6% showed up to the polls, (in California of all places), one could have the tendancy to throw in the towel.

I came away from by breif union experience with the thought I posted above. That right here in Massachusetts, where once people rose up against tyranny and started a revolution based on freedom from oppression, that somehow, somewhere along the line we've become sheep - content to roll over on our bellies and wait for the "slight pressure".... We bitch on internet forums and with our shooting buddies on the rifle range - hell, we'll even send an E-Mail that will never be read to a politican who could give a shit, but how many of us will show up at the polls or get on a bus and stand out in the rain on Beacon Hill? I guess time and the next round of rights stripping will tell....

Ramble over...carry on....

 

[drgrant]

I think it's because they don't have the balls to do it, more or
less. If they go for the jugular right off the bat, then they might be
disturbed to find someone doing the same to them- except with a drastically
different result-literal instead of figurative! Grandfather type bans are
one thing, and are generally annoying but a "100% ban" would be enough to
push a few people over the edge; theres "that guy" that's already been
pushed 2 times in a given period of time, and then some hack from the
goverment comes on TV and says he's going to take away everyones guns
tomorrow- including "that guy's". I'll leave the rest of what happens
as an excercise to the reader- but lets put it this way... that guy is
going to say "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore" and
then bad things happen thereafter. Antis use incrementalism because
it is less politically (and physically) costly. They know they can slowly
erode things over time without much or any percievable backlash... and thats
why they do it that way.


-Mike

 

[ArmedMainer]

+1
And also lets all get off our collective asses and vote, as I have said before I feel if every gun owner showed up to the polls and voted pro 2nd Amendment it would be a landslide victory in our favor. Don't vote Dem. just because your daddy did.

Alot of voters cast their votes for anti-RKBA candidates because they feel they are voting for the lesser of two evils. RKBA is one of many issues for voters and sometimes it gets thrown by the wayside. In this past election alot of Independents and Republicans voters chose Dims because they thought the current administration wasn't listening to them on the immigration , Iraq and other issues. Next year I'm afraid to say we all are going to see all those polls claiming that 60% of Americans are against Bush's stance on Iraq are more than media hype. The Dims are going to wipe the floor with us.

 

[Hammer]

Therein lies the problem. I often equate my experiences with gun owners with my experience as a healthcare union organizer. I would make housecalls to hospital, nursing home and mental health employees - from nurses to housekeeping. All - and I mean all would talk endlessly over coffee and cigarettes about how sick they were about being ignored, underpaid, unappreciated and oppressed by their employers, the state and the healthcare system. They would ramble about the Big Dig and road projects and being overlooked by the legislature for a cost of living increase. I would tell them: "Come with us then - we're going to rally at Beacon Hill". I would visit 150 employees, 7 would show up for the bus. I gave a speech on Beacon Hill to a crowd of 200 out of 10's of thousands who were informed the rally would be taking place. Weld probably sat in his office and laughed his ass off... Still, I would go back and listen to the excuses: "Oh, it was THAT day??" "My daughter had soccer practice" "I get sick on busses" - on and on ad nauseam. I would then say: "Okay then, sorry you missed it, but we really could use you on the informational picket at the hospital - we're also doing a letter writing campaign to Ted Kennedy and John Olver to try and get them to act". "Ted Kennedy? Oh, I love Ted Kennedy - you're not going to make him mad are you???" You would have thought I was committing blasphemy. Again, no one would show and a handfull of us would stand in the rain and look like idiots - powerless - voiceless.

A huge chunk of gun owners are the same way - sorry to say it. Many talk the talk, but when it comes to walking the walk, (even to the voting booth), they go the other way. Some hunters think: "It will never happen to me - let them have those friggin assault rifles". Others may think that their vote will do no good - after all Massachusetts is run by Liberals. Few realize that en masse, we can rattle some cages. Still, when you see that out of a census of 12,000 gun owners that 5.6% showed up to the polls, (in California of all places), one could have the tendancy to throw in the towel.

I came away from by breif union experience with the thought I posted above. That right here in Massachusetts, where once people rose up against tyranny and started a revolution based on freedom from oppression, that somehow, somewhere along the line we've become sheep - content to roll over on our bellies and wait for the "slight pressure".... We bitch on internet forums and with our shooting buddies on the rifle range - hell, we'll even send an E-Mail that will never be read to a politican who could give a shit, but how many of us will show up at the polls or get on a bus and stand out in the rain on Beacon Hill? I guess time and the next round of rights stripping will tell....

Ramble over...carry on....

MassMark - excellant reply !!!!

 

[dwarven1]

while I'm really not sure about the numbers if 1.5 mil. had permits in '98 I'd be willing to bet most of the numbers drop occured when the process changed and alot of the FID cards expired. some of them probably still own guns, legal or not.

+2!!

I am holding on to a Marlin .22 for one Lodge brother who is SUPPOSED to get off his a$$ and get his new LTC. Real Soon Now, that is. I talked to another Lodge brother last week who told me he still has a shotgun, .22 rifle and an old .32 revolver and he let his permit expire. When I urged him to get his new permit and told him that he could be arrested for even OWNING them, he basically blew it off and said "too bad; I'm not going to bother".


What the hell can you do when faced with that? *shrug* I tried my best and couldn't move him...

 

[Len-2A Training]

The 1.5 million licenses were the combination of LTCs and FIDs. MANY of us held both before 1998. Many had moved out of state or died, but it did reflect a lot more gun owners than what we have licensed today.

Like Ross, I've met people who let the old FID expire and refuse to go thru the BS to get a FID/LTC under the current rules, yet they still own their guns.

Regardless, most do not vote for gun rights, but do vote for more social programs, Social Security, welfare, etc.

 

[Lugnut]

+2!!

I am holding on to a Marlin .22 for one Lodge brother who is SUPPOSED to get off his a$$ and get his new LTC. Real Soon Now, that is. I talked to another Lodge brother last week who told me he still has a shotgun, .22 rifle and an old .32 revolver and he let his permit expire. When I urged him to get his new permit and told him that he could be arrested for even OWNING them, he basically blew it off and said "too bad; I'm not going to bother".


What the hell can you do when faced with that? *shrug* I tried my best and couldn't move him...

I had the opportunity to listen to Jim Wallace from GOAL the other night. He was talking about gun control gone bad- do some simple math. If you had 1.5M FIDs and now only 300K LTC- where did everyone's firearms go? With all the strict crazy ass laws we have now the police don't even have an answer to this. No wonder they can't get firearms from gangs and murderers. Heck we just need to pass some more "feel good" laws and we'll be all set right?

 

[KMaurer]

Len,

while I'm really not sure about the numbers if 1.5 mil. had permits in '98 I'd be willing to bet most of the numbers drop occured when the process changed and alot of the FID cards expired. some of them probably still own guns, legal or not. And with low voter turnout being the norm in this day and age I'm pretty sure we could "shock & awe" a few of them at the polls.
either way I stand by my get out and vote mantra

The big drop was obviously among those who only had that old "good for life" FID. Even now, almost 10 years later, I still get several students every year who sheepishly admit that they didn't realize their FIDs were no longer valid. Being the honest person I am, I quickly tell them to stop talking at that point, so I really don't know whether of them have been keeping firearms illegally all this time. (If the keep talking, I stick my fingers in my ears and dance around, loudly chanting "I can't hear you".)

Ken

 

[Len-2A Training]

Ken,

The visual on that is precious!

 

[dwarven1]

If the keep talking, I stick my fingers in my ears and dance around, loudly chanting "I can't hear you".

Sort of like a liberal being told facts and figures about how right to carry laws are driving crime rates down.

 

[95thFoot]

I get the same run-around from reenactors and acquaintances.

One reenactor told me, when I told him he should get an FID, and take the coursework involved w/it, "It's not a problem now. when it becomes a problem, I'll deal with it. I don't want to deal with it right now." IOW, he doesn't want to admit he's a gunowner. (Reenactors are a protected species in MA-libs love 'em, for some reason. BTW I'm doing a newspaper interview at work tom'w regarding guns and uniforms of 1775 for the Glob....)

Somebody I know here in MA w/o any kind of gun license told me he inherited his granddad's revolvers, and asked me what he should do. I told him about MA gun laws (his jaw dropped) and I told him to tell me no more, as I didn't want to be party to an illegal act. I printed out an application from the town PD's webpage, gave him the # of the officer who runs the LTC course, and sent him on his way -the rest is up to him....

Much of the sloth involved in getting gun licenses etc., is that MA is physically and psychically a tiring place to be. The work commute leaves one burned out, to say nothing of job hassles in this dog-eat-dog atmosphere. Neighborhoods in most parts of the state are packed, people live chock-a-block next to each other, but few people know each other well. Some don't even know their neighbors' names.

Add in the tax burdens, the special interest groups, the Big Dig, the systemic corruption, all tearing at one's attention and wallet, it all leaves one feeling as if one's gone through ten rounds with Tyson. No wonder so many become cynical and just give up- some guys tell me, "Hell, I can't even get a time to go shoot guns, let alone deal with red tape- what's the point?"

 

[Chris]

A minor change to Chapter 140 section 129C is all it would take.
-----------------------
Bill XYZ

In Chapter 140 Section 129C, remove the language in the first sentence starting after "dealer or" and before the word "exempt".
------------------------

Done, everyone but the protected groups are now felons. (protected groups are dealers, the enforcers, and non-gun owners)

And Ken, I usually fire back with "That is a very good hypothetical question."

Gotta love a government that would create Felons based solely on the lack of possession of a piece of paper that says otherwise. So much for innocent until proven guilty.