Suggestions Please

[Ripach]

I recently received my C&R and am fascinated by Milsurp rifles, I have still not made a purchase and am hoping you folks could give me a little push.
I ask that you please back your opinion (I prefer to not get comments like I love Mausers with no substance) also if you wouldn't mind, throw out what you think would be a fair price, I know all collectibles are valued essentially by the individual but it is good to see if I'm in the ballpark with others.

I have been considering an M38 Mossin Carbine, I like the caliber and the lack of a bayonet, I also think with the right furniture these rifles are a sight to behold.

I am interested in German mausers but more for the history then anything, so I find I am always looking at the ones with all markings intact. That seems to add to the cost and I'm unsure wheather or not I feel it is worth it.

I recently came across the mausers redone by the Israeli's in 7.62 NATO I like the idea of getting a collectable and a .308 bolt gun all in one purchase, also have thought of this with the Ishapore enfield.

I know little to nothing about K31 Swiss guns, and I am sure there are many other rifles that you hard core collectors could suggest. Anyway thank you in advance for any assistance you can render.
-Rick

 

[Cross-X]

I suggest a K-31, since Swiss rifles have that world famous slick Swiss action. Prices are rising, get yours before they are all gone.

 

[Len-2A Training]

M1 from CMP - A piece of US Military history!
M1 Carbine from CMP - same as above
Yes to the Israeli Mausers - a piece of history in the Middle East!
K31 - Sweet gun that did it's job of keeping the Germans out of Switzerland!
K98s - Many varieties! A piece of German (and many other countries) Military history

The real answer has to be focused on "what floats your boat"! Japanese guns don't interest me, perhaps because my late Father fought in Europe during WWII. I suspect that if he'd been stationed in the Far East, my interests would be different . . . this is just one example of why my recommendations are what they are.

 

[SKS Ray]

The biggest mistake people make when collecting/buying milsurps is they buy everything they see just because they don't have it. I'm guilty of this and have sold a few rifles that just sat there in the safe. Room becomes an issue after a while and unless you have a vault like I'm going to build. Most people just don't have enough space to legally store the guns, and they all have to be locked away, even a $50 beater rifle you may come across.

I've gave this advice before and I'll say it again. There are some rifles you should get now because they're drying up and won't be here soon at the prices they are now. Yugo SKS rifles being one of them. After buying and shooting lots of different bolt action rifles and a few semi autos, I settled on the SKS because they're simple in design and to work on, ammo is available and still affordable, and there are enough variations and modesl to keep me collecting for a long time. But prices have risen on unissued Yugo 59/66 rifles from $130 when I first bought one to $200+ now and they're continuing to rise. Importation has recently stopped so whats here is what we have to work with. A fair/good price for a VG/excellent condition Yugo 59/66 would be $150 - $170.

K31s are also drying up and are continuing to rise in price from the $79 I remember to now double that and more topping out at $180 for really nice ones. Surplus GP11 ammo has supposedly run out and sellers know this so its getting a hefty price tag lately. A brick of 60 rounds used to cost $23, now I can't imagine what one would go for, probably $50 or more, if someone had it. Only other options are modern brands like Wolf Gold for close to $15 for a box of 20. Swiss straight pull rifles are nice. They're accurate, made well, easy to shoot, and usually really clean and in great condition internally. Every C&R holder should own at least 1.

You mentioned the M38 Mosin. Im bringing mine to the member's shoot so you can try it if you don't get one before then. I paid around $50 for it when a popular distributor had them listed a few years ago during their 12 days of Christmas sale. Now I see them going for three times as much.

FWIW the 91/59s are good rifles too. They're 91/30s that were cut down in the 50s by Russian arsenals and stored away. Most were never shot after being built and have great looking stocks and metal. Accuracy is rumored to be better than the M38 because they have thicker barrels. I think they're the hottest deal going today for Mosins along with some of the affordable M39s still out there. Expect to pay around $170 for a 91/59. They were made in limited numbers and are another rifle whos supply has dried up with only 1 importer having bought in a few in the last 5 years.

Turkish Mausers are also a hot collectable now. Just a year ago you could get one for as little as $60 in great shape and have a very accurate Mauser long rifle. Every now and then some pop up for sale but they're starting to rise in price because people realized how great these shot and started buying them like crazy.

A US made Savage Enfield is also another good deal. Not many left around and once they go from the milsurp distributor catalogs, prices will rise and eventually double. There are some minty examples still to be found but the pickings are getting slim. Prices are at about $200.

And if you like oddball stuff you could always get an M59 straight pull carbine. These recently came back around and while the bolts are a PITA to strip and clean, they can be fairly accurate and are fun. Ammo is getting hard to find though with only a few distributors selling now.

One other word of advice is to consider sights when buying milsurps. There are quite a few rifles that have sights that start at 200 and even 400 yards. Shooting them at 50 and even 100 yards is often a challenge w/out modifying the front sight. Some guys aim a foot or more below the target but for me thats just not much fun.

One more thing... I'm not big into pistols but I advise getting a CZ52 and a CZ82 since both are C&R and still fairly cheap. These are fun plinkers and will increase in value sooner or later. I have 1 of each and enjoy taking them out now and then.

 

[Ripach]

Thank you all for the quick replies, you have made some good points and given me a lot of things to think about. I know I'm just going to end up with an impulse buy soon because that C&R is just begging to be used.

Milsurps, I look forward to meeting you at the shoot, If I haven't grabbed an M38 I would love to try yours. If I have picked one up I'll bring it so you can give me some pointers.

Thanks again guys, it's things like this that make this forum great.
-Rick

 

[USMA-82]

Not much I can add to Dr. Milsurps treatise above...

I would recommend two other things - do the research and buy the books. By spending time on the auction boards and forums, you can get a real good feel for the market price on things. That, combined with online pricing resources like this site:

http://www.fo.com/cr-buds/prices.asp

...give you information to make the right choices. You will find that one of the favorite pastimes of milsurp collectors is bragging about how little they paid for their latest acquisition.

I try to buy a good reference book for every rifle I buy. That adds up to some cash, too, but it's well worth the investment.

What these two things (research and books) do for you is prepare you for that moment you are in the right place at the right time, and find an unbelievable deal somewhere (or several) that you swoop down on.

Also - realize there are those who collect milsurps so they can store them in the safe until they are ready to cash in a few years later, and those who SHOOT THEM. Be a shooter! It's more fun in the long run.

 

[Pilgrim]

I recently came across the mausers redone by the Israeli's in 7.62 NATO I like the idea of getting a collectible and a .308 bolt gun all in one purchase, also have thought of this with the Ishapore enfield.

I'm not sure that a reworked Mauser would be considered much of a collectible.

When I started acquiring guns, I first went with an AK. I went into a store looking for an AR but found they were too expensive and ended up with an AK. It was cool, so an SKS was next....both cheap to shoot. Then a Mosin 38....cooler to shoot and cheap. All these were fun and cheap but were just guns and had no real 'meaning' to me. Others came along too.

Then I discovered CMP and got a service grade Springfield M1 Garand. I asked for one prior to D-Day as my Dad MIGHT have carried it on Utah Beach. Then came a 1903a3, then an M1917, then a carbine, and so on. I could 'connect' with these. Perhaps I knew someone who used them...... I could visualize the places where they might have been used. Every time I pick one up, my mind takes me to different places. Every time I see a war movie or documentary, I wonder if the gun the soldier is carrying is one I have in my safe.

That being said, my 'plan' was to try and focus on American milsurps from post civil war to Korea....maybe also an M1a and an AR. I'm still working on it. I have a few 19th Century pieces and hope for more. I recently passed on a flintlock, but it's still around and I may get it yet.

Some of the US stuff is getting pretty pricey so I expanded to WW1/WW2 foreign stuff... a Mauser, an Arisaka, Enfield, etc. and then Milsurp handguns, 1911a1's, 1917 Colt, Nambu, hope to get a Nagant, etc, etc, etc, etc. The foreign stuff is cheaper than US and getting them fills in the 'need' to buy something while waiting for the next good US Milsurp to come along.

I guess what I'm saying is try to find a focus and stick to it as much as possible. There are so many things out there that, even with a focus, you'll still wander and get other stuff from time to time.

Good luck, you've just started a really fun journey !

 

[OnTheRoad]

The foreign stuff is cheaper than US and getting them fills in the 'need' to buy something while waiting for the next good US Milsurp to come along.

+1, Pilgrim.

The funds are set aside for the M1 Carbine but in the meantime I have a $35 Chinese Mosin on its way as a "placeholder".

 

[Joe R.]

Hard to top what has been said above. It comes down to what floats your boat.

I started off with various different rifles ( mistakes made along the way ) and find it all pretty much stimulating because of the history. As time has gone by, I find myself coming down to 2 basic themes of my milsurp collection/museum - Mosins and long-barreled Mausers. Yes, I do own the prerequsites like a M-1 Garand, Enfields ( 3 - 2 British and 1 Ishapore in .308 ) and a Springfield ( shot out, will get it put back after awhile ) but I keep coming back to the Mosins/ Mausers. There are good examples of each that are still priced right in good condition, making them affordable. Ammo for these 2 groups is still plentiful.

Mosins have became the choice because of what I perceive is a good value for the money. I have mostly long rifles but do own an M44 just because. I find it decently accurate ( have to put the bayonet out ) and fun. The Mosin type I've gotten into recently is the snipers. I wanted 1 for just shits and grins and picked up a replica to fill that void. It didn't stop there - found an ex-PU sniper and am working to put it back. Most recent was the real one I got and am working at fixing the cracks and missing pieces. Damn things are addictive!

I like the long barreled Mausers and own 2 - a Persian and a Polish WZ-98A. I love the feel and handling of the rifles. I always look around for these in good condition. I'm not impressed with the Turks I've seen - pretty much shot out and rough looking.

Do your research and buy wisely. You'll grab some duds but make sure you learn from the mistakes. Have fun!
Joe R.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I recently came across the mausers redone by the Israeli's in 7.62 NATO I like the idea of getting a collectible and a .308 bolt gun all in one purchase, also have thought of this with the Ishapore enfield.

I'm not sure that a reworked Mauser would be considered much of a collectible.

These do have significant collectible value as they weren't just any "reworked Mauser". When the UN recognized Israel as a new country, the Arab nations were poised to destroy Israel and murder every last Jew in that country.

Israel bought German K98 Mausers and converted them to a more easily obtainable cartridge (for them, officially nobody was supposed to ship them arms) 7.62 NATO. The Israelis peened out the Nazi markings on most of the guns and put Israeli marks on them.

Back in 2001, I purchased one of these from a quality mil surp dealer/distributor for ~$350 in excellent shape. Not sure what it's worth today, but I'd guess a lot more than I paid for it.

 

[SKS Ray]

These do have significant collectible value as they weren't just any "reworked Mauser". When the UN recognized Israel as a new country, the Arab nations were poised to destroy Israel and murder every last Jew in that country.

Israel bought German K98 Mausers and converted them to a more easily obtainable cartridge (for them, officially nobody was supposed to ship them arms) 7.62 NATO. The Israelis peened out the Nazi markings on most of the guns and put Israeli marks on them.

Back in 2001, I purchased one of these from a quality mil surp dealer/distributor for ~$350 in excellent shape. Not sure what it's worth today, but I'd guess a lot more than I paid for it.

I put those in the category with the 2A Enfields. Even though the 2As were made in India for 308 and not from old reworked 303 rifles, they're an oddball collectable in the Enfield collector circuit and most serious Enfield collectors wind up owning one at some point. The same can be said for the wire wrapped Ishy Enfields. Those have doubled in price recently from when I first saw them.
Most shooters that settle on a certain type of rifle design wind up getting one of each in that design. Mauser types but be the broadest range to collect.

 

[Joe R.]

These do have significant collectible value as they weren't just any "reworked Mauser". When the UN recognized Israel as a new country, the Arab nations were poised to destroy Israel and murder every last Jew in that country.

Israel bought German K98 Mausers and converted them to a more easily obtainable cartridge (for them, officially nobody was supposed to ship them arms) 7.62 NATO. The Israelis peened out the Nazi markings on most of the guns and put Israeli marks on them.

Back in 2001, I purchased one of these from a quality mil surp dealer/distributor for ~$350 in excellent shape. Not sure what it's worth today, but I'd guess a lot more than I paid for it.

One I saw at the Marlboro show had a $750 price tag on it. They won't be cheap and that rifle wasn't perfect...

Joe R.

 

[Ripach]

You guys are overloading my brain with stuff, I feel like I'm in that movie scanners . Joking aside this is truly awesome, I have my paperwork ready to go for an M1 Carbine this weekend, I am leaning strongly now toward a Mosin just trying to decide between picking up a 91/30 and making it into a sniper, or grabbing M38 to shoot pretty much as is. I already own an Ak variant and an AR-15 also my first pistol ever was a E. German Makarov which has increased slightly in value since I bought it, I guess I didn't anticipate relic milsurps being so overwhelming. Thanks for all the help.

-Rick

 

[Ripach]

USMA-82, Thanks for the link thats a good chunk of what I was looking for.

 

[SKS Ray]

Be leary of 91/30 snipers. Some of the ex snipers with holes already in the receiver may seem like a nice easy sniper rebuild but often you get a mount that has holes that don't line up, or have one that sets the mount off balance. Its best to buy a 91/30 with a good bore and muzzle thats already drilled, tapped, and with a repro scope and mount already mounted.
At least with a repro you can always shim or grind the mount if needed and make a fairly good shooter out of it.
True Mosin snipers with original mounts can fetch upwards of $700 and repros aren't too far behind at around $350. I've been seeing some recent offerings on other forums of original Hungarian marked 91/30 snipers now and then. Those are a real collectable.
Keep your eyes out for Finn marked 91/30s (marked with an SA in a small square on the reciver) those can be really nice shooters.

 

[Joe R.]

1) Pick up a M91/30 repo from Interordnance. They use steel mounts and bases and they won't break in the first box of ammo like the SOG repo's. Mine was done good and I haven't needed to shim or grind to get it to square up - windage is down 1 line from 0 and I could take it out by adjusting the turret. Mine didn't have a good trigger on it - Huber Concepts fixes that.

2) It's not so much that the holes are off on the ex-PU's as it is that there are 2 different measurements for spacing of the screws. My tipoff was the Ebay item that the seller needed your measurement to get you the right base. The 2 measurements are 53.5mm and 55.5mm. Check before you buy. My measurement was the 53.5mm.

3) Milsurps can tell you just how much stuff there is out there for the Mosin snipers and how much some of this stuff is going for - spend your money wisely. My ex-PU still shoots good but the change back to a standard got rid of the sniper trigger. Mounts and bases available are mostly repos but the scopes that Ammunition Store is selling are real and come with the mounts but no bases. That's where I am now in converting back the ex...

Joe R.

 

[Ripach]

I had a realization this morning that I was not going to receive a carbine from CMP for quite some time as they have not even sent me an Email letting me know they got my order. This realization had me bummed out so I turned to the one thing that makes me happy when I'm depressed I bought a gun. After much consideration and dwelling on the fact that I still have about $900+ floating out there in unreceived or unverified purchases (CMP and RRA upper), I decided to go cheap and ordered an M38 Mosin. I did spring for the hand select fee, and am having a little buyers remorse on that one (not that it broke the bank). So I guess if I have a question here it is do you guys normally pay for hand select on your purchases and if you have did you find it worth it? So there it is my first purchase on my new C&R, now to go watch for the UPS/FEDEX truck.

 

[Cross-X]

So I guess if I have a question here it is do you guys normally pay for hand select on your purchases and if you have did you find it worth it? So there it is my first purchase on my new C&R, now to go watch for the UPS/FEDEX truck.

I do, and it usually seems to work out fairly well, but the last time I paid the extra $10, for a hand-selected K31, I received the rifle and an apology from the dealer.

The rifle he sent had the serial number electro-penciled on the bolt. That bit of work wasn't pretty, but I can't say I really care enough to send it back.

 

[SKS Ray]

If you want to PM me where you got it from I'll tell you what I think of that distributor's idea of hand select because I've ordered from just about every company out there and have paid hand select.
It usually works out although some will say they take 5 guns and pick the best looking one. Depending on the company I'll tell them specifically what I'm looking for and sometimes they'll call me back and tell me that they have none with for example a certain year, code, etc. but most places are pretty helpful because this is a business where the dealers really apreciate your business.

 

[vellnueve]

1) Pick up a M91/30 repo from Interordnance. They use steel mounts and bases and they won't break in the first box of ammo like the SOG repo's. Mine was done good and I haven't needed to shim or grind to get it to square up - windage is down 1 line from 0 and I could take it out by adjusting the turret. Mine didn't have a good trigger on it - Huber Concepts fixes that.

2) It's not so much that the holes are off on the ex-PU's as it is that there are 2 different measurements for spacing of the screws. My tipoff was the Ebay item that the seller needed your measurement to get you the right base. The 2 measurements are 53.5mm and 55.5mm. Check before you buy. My measurement was the 53.5mm.

3) Milsurps can tell you just how much stuff there is out there for the Mosin snipers and how much some of this stuff is going for - spend your money wisely. My ex-PU still shoots good but the change back to a standard got rid of the sniper trigger. Mounts and bases available are mostly repos but the scopes that Ammunition Store is selling are real and come with the mounts but no bases. That's where I am now in converting back the ex...

Joe R.

The SOG PUs aren't ready to go out of the box by a long shot. I wish I had gone with the Interordnance, but after a good amount of grinding the aluminum base it seems to be roughly on now. That said the rifle itself isn't shooting good groups at all (I blame the trigger, it's awful) so I'm going to at some point swap my M44 trigger with it and see if it works better.

That said, I have put about a hundred rounds through it and the mount hasn't broken yet.

 

[SKS Ray]

I've heard good and bad when it comes to the Mosin Snipers from just about every popular place that sells them. Some say distributor X sells junk, other love them, and vice versa. I think it depends on the rifle you get and its a crap shoot.
There was one distributor I read about on the Parallax forums, and I honestly can't remember the name because they are rarely ever mentioned, that had 91/30 snipers that a few people said were top of the line. Some searching there from some of the veteran Mosin shooters might reveal some info.

 

[Joe R.]

Yea, I'm having some of the same problems Vellnueve. I think 2 things are influencing what we are seeing:

1) It is still a refurbed standard rifle that these are based on. I've gotten it grouped okay with the scope but still is only " minute of clay pidgeon " at 100yds. The real guns were the cream of the crop - my real one ( I believe it is ) shows good potential that the repo can only think about.

2) Ammo - I'm only getting good results with the Czech silver tip and am just about to break into one of the two cases I have. Bulgarian light ball is good but not as good as the Czech.

I'm constantly having to adjust the scope each time I go to the range and it is starting to frustrate me alittle. Kind of funny in a way that shooting off the bench won't give me tight groups on paper but going for rocks and clays gives great results - it's almost like the rifles don't like paper targets!

Joe R.