Supreme Court - NYSRPA v. Bruen - Megathread

Picton said:
You're not understanding me.

I don't think the AG's memo is wrong. I think it tells police officers to stop enforcing LTC restrictions. I think it's entirely proper for her to advise the police that way.
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That's not how I read her memo. I read her memo as being "don't issue restricted LTCs." Her memo doesn't say "all existing LTCs are unrestricted so you shouldn't charge someone for carrying on a restricted LTC".

GOAL agrees with my reading of her memo:

"Whereas restricted licenses are now clearly unconstitutional, the guidance gave no mention of the fact that any restrictions on currently issued licenses can no longer be enforced. That all such licenses are now considered to have been issued for all lawful purposes. "

See: https://goal.org/resources/Documents/AG Healey.pdf
 
M1911 said:
That's not how I read her memo. I read her memo as being "don't issue restricted LTCs." Her memo doesn't say "all existing LTCs are unrestricted so you shouldn't charge someone for carrying on a restricted LTC".
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How does that square with the 14th Amendment?

"...nor [shall a State] deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."
 
Picton said:
How does that square with the 14th Amendment?
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It doesn't. Her memo is wrong. But until she either changes her mind and issues new guidance or a court smacks down a chief for enforcing restrictions, then the chiefs have a legal fig leaf to hide behind.

Picton said:
If the CoP ignores that and continues to enforce restrictions, then the CoP opens himself up to lawsuits... no?
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They will get sued and they will likely lose. But their defense is that they followed the AG's advice. What you are suggesting, that the AG's advice is that all licenses are now effectively unrestricted, is not what the AG's memo says.

The AG's memo is not in accordance with the SCOTUS decision. But until a court smacks it down, anti-gun police chiefs may well try to enforce restrictions on existing licenses.
 
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PappyM3 said:
When there is a groundbreaking ruling about civil rights that directly affects their profession… then yes, I do. Professional competence and awareness of things affecting your job is something I expect of people. I’m not surprised when people fail to meet those expectations, but I still have those expectations.
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Totally agree. The only problem is we will have to wait a bit for that shit to roll to the bottom of the hill. I hear more and more cops saying they dont like the job anymore. Its not what it used to be. Translation...they cant go around violating peoples rights as much anymore because people are wising up and pushing back instead of blindly doing everything a cop tells you. Look how long that took.
 
It's the CITY/TOWNS responsibilty to train/inform it's Officers of changing laws, rules, etc. Chain of Command starts with Mayor/Selectman/Town Manager then to City Attorney then to COP. In this specific situation they would be either stupid or negligent not to issue a formal memo, policy change to it's employees.
 
Dench said:
Is this case still beyond useless or has something changed?
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What may seem useless to you, provided you already possess an unrestricted permit (as do I), certainly isn't useless to tons of others.

Also, while not immediately changing things for how YOU practice the second amendment immediately, there are multiple pathways in which this ruling may, and likely will positively change/erase certain laws and rulings that WILL effect you. Do you enjoy being limited to 10 rounds in a mag? No? Well this ruling may give us a chance at overturning that. Do you enjoy having Maura tell you what you can and cant own simply because you live in a trash state? No? Well that may eventually be changed as well due to this ruling. The court system takes time. That doesn't mean that this ruling was "useless" by any means. This ruling seems to have enough leverage to even perhaps create a discussion for reciprocity.
 
DK12 said:
What may seem useless to you, provided you already possess an unrestricted permit (as do I), certainly isn't useless to tons of others.

Also, while not immediately changing things for how YOU practice the second amendment immediately, there are multiple pathways in which this ruling may, and likely will positively change/erase certain laws and rulings that WILL effect you. Do you enjoy being limited to 10 rounds in a mag? No? Well this ruling may give us a chance at overturning that. Do you enjoy having Maura tell you what you can and cant own simply because you live in a trash state? No? Well that may eventually be changed as well due to this ruling. The court system takes time. That doesn't mean that this ruling was "useless" by any means. This ruling seems to have enough leverage to even perhaps create a discussion for reciprocity.
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What's going to happen when the liberals do the obvious and start to ban carry of firearms in all sorts of geographic locations? A decade plus of f*** f*** games in court.

Is this ruling literally useless? No. Is it some sort of massive victory? No.
 
Dench said:
Is this case still beyond useless or has something changed?
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About 75 million people were elevated to shall issue states.

And Thomas and the majority explicitly rejecting intermediate scrutiny as the standard will pay off for decades. Every gun control law was upheld using intermediate scrutiny, few will survive text and history.
 
Dench said:
What's going to happen when the liberals do the obvious and start to ban carry of firearms in all sorts of geographic locations? A decade plus of f*** f*** games in court.

Is this ruling literally useless? No. Is it some sort of massive victory? No.
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SCOTUS said that would not be constitutional. Text and history, that what any law must comply with. Also, the courts are much different than pre 2017, trump added a lot of judges to the appeals courts.
 
Hoover said:
SCOTUS said that would not be constitutional. Text and history, that what any law must comply with. Also, the courts are much different than pre 2017, trump added a lot of judges to the appeals courts.
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Heres my concern. SCOTUS said in Heller that you cannot ban firearms in "common use." They said it in direct, non legalese language that zero people would objectively find vague. Yet plenty of states openly ignore this. MA not only ignores it, but acknowledged years ago that AR-15's were still being sold in huge amounts despite the states attempt to ban them, which lead to the Healy BS MA is now stuck under. MA literally admitted AR-15s were in the common use and then adjusted it's ban accordingly. Double strike against Heller/McDonald right there. Zero repercussions.

So, that's my concern. And that's my gripe. SCOTUS tends to say a lot of things. And the same a**h***s who got dragged to SCOTUS seem to have zero problem both ignoring the rulings and definitely flaunting that fact.

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy some people in MA will benefit. Regardless at the end of the day, MA is a statist woke shit hole filled with dangerous insecure people who want to control you. SCOTUS seems to have zero teeth anymore. Hell, look at all the bullshit frat boy Kavanaugh has to put up with. The kid cant even get dinner. People are trying to kill him. People are stalking his house. All/most of this is illegal. Does the federal government act? No.

So, at the end, I suppose not only is this ruling useless, so is the court. The court can't even provide for it's own defense against people who break the law stalking it's judges. Nevermind enforce a ruling that states don't care about.

We live in strange times. Lawless times.

(and since a few people brought up the FL thing...)

I didn't leave MA over gun rights. Sadly I was able to tolerate it. I left MA because I was afraid of it and it's people. Looking back a year, I have zero regrets. I went to MA for the 1st time in over a year just recently and I hadn't been that uncomfortable in memory. Those here who know my story, I left MA at great professional sacrifice. I was that worried about what I saw going on. Gun's weren't even on my radar. And sadly, I was right. Breaks my heart to see what MA is now compared to how I can remember it in my earliest memories in the 80's.

It's not like I wanted to move to FL. The people who know me personally were amazed I did it. I don't love FL. It ended up being nothing more than a life raft that I dove into. It was one hell of a rocky ride when I moved. Like no income for 10 months rocky. Like I have zero pension or retirement rocky. Like my previous job didnt pay into social security rocky. Like I have one hell of a shit tier retirement option(s) at this point rocky.

I only did it because I didn't see any other choice. I just couldnt tolerate the lawlessness anymore. In my case it was woke BS forced into my life and the COVID-19 reaction from the state that greatly limited my ability to freely travel, etc. Was the slap in the face that finally woke me up. I'll never forget when I talked with my lawyer about my work policy stating I couldnt leave MA. I asked is it legal? He said no. He also said never in a million years would a MA court find in my favor. That's a Banana Republic.

So, I wish you guys luck. But given Miller, Heller and McDonald, well, you know how those ones worked out.
 
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Dench said:
Heres my concern. SCOTUS said in Heller that you cannot ban firearms in "common use." They said it in direct, non legalese language that zero people would objectively find vague. Yet plenty of states openly ignore this. MA not only ignores it, but acknowledged years ago that AR-15's were still being sold in huge amounts despite the states attempt to ban them, which lead to the Healy BS MA is now stuck under. MA literally admitted AR-15s were in the common use and then adjusted it's ban accordingly. Double strike against Heller/McDonald right there. Zero repercussions.

So, that's my concern. And that's my gripe. SCOTUS tends to say a lot of things. And the same a**h***s who got dragged to SCOTUS seem to have zero problem both ignoring the rulings and definitely flaunting that fact.

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy some people in MA will benefit. Regardless at the end of the day, MA is a statist woke shit hole filled with dangerous insecure people who want to control you. SCOTUS seems to have zero teeth anymore. Hell, look at all the bullshit frat boy Kavanaugh has to put up with. The kid cant even get dinner. People are trying to kill him. People are stalking his house. All/most of this is illegal. Does the federal government act? No.

So, at the end, I suppose not only is this ruling useless, so is the court. The court can't even provide for it's own defense against people who break the law stalking it's judges. Nevermind enforce a ruling that states don't care about.

We live in strange times. Lawless times.

I didn't leave MA over gun rights. Sadly I was able to tolerate it. I left MA because I was afraid of it and it's people. Looking back a year, I have zero regrets. I went to MA for the 1st time in over a year just recently and I hadn't been that uncomfortable in memory. Those here who know my story, I left MA at great professional sacrifice. I was that worried about what I saw going on. Gun's weren't even on my radar. And sadly, I was right. Breaks my heart to see what MA is now compared to how I can remember it in my earliest memories in the 80's.

It's not like I wanted to move to FL. The people who know me personally were amazed I did it. I don't love FL. It ended up being nothing more than a life raft that I dove into. It was one hell of a rocky ride when I moved. Like no income for 10 months rocky. Like I have zero pension or retirement rocky. Like my previous job didnt pay into social security rocky. Like I have one hell of a shit tier retirement option(s) at this point rocky.

I only did it because I didn't see any other choice.
Click to expand...

Earlier, I compared our struggle to dismantle Federal firearms policy to the NAACP's efforts to dismantle Jim Crow. Back then, the exact same dynamic happened: SCOTUS and other federal courts made their rulings, states flaunted them openly, and presidents from different parties (Eisenhower, Kennedy, and Johnson) compelled those states to knuckle under. People died. National Guards were federalized. It took almost 20 years. But it happened.

This was never going to be a quick win, and I don't even see any Kennedys waiting in the wings, still less Ikes or LBJs. But someday a DeSantis (or someone like him) will ascend to the White House, and this ruling will give him ammo to make some things right. In the meantime, don't pooh-pooh the new "text and history" standard, nor the changes in the federal judiciary over the past several years. Those have meaning. That meaning won't happen overnight, but it'll happen.
 
Dench said:
Heres my concern. SCOTUS said in Heller that you cannot ban firearms in "common use." They said it in direct, non legalese language that zero people would objectively find vague. Yet plenty of states openly ignore this. MA not only ignores it, but acknowledged years ago that AR-15's were still being sold in huge amounts despite the states attempt to ban them, which lead to the Healy BS MA is now stuck under. MA literally admitted AR-15s were in the common use and then adjusted it's ban accordingly. Double strike against Heller/McDonald right there. Zero repercussions.

So, that's my concern. And that's my gripe. SCOTUS tends to say a lot of things. And the same a**h***s who got dragged to SCOTUS seem to have zero problem both ignoring the rulings and definitely flaunting that fact.

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy some people in MA will benefit. Regardless at the end of the day, MA is a statist woke shit hole filled with dangerous insecure people who want to control you. SCOTUS seems to have zero teeth anymore. Hell, look at all the bullshit frat boy Kavanaugh has to put up with. The kid cant even get dinner. People are trying to kill him. People are stalking his house. All/most of this is illegal. Does the federal government act? No.

So, at the end, I suppose not only is this ruling useless, so is the court. The court can't even provide for it's own defense against people who break the law stalking it's judges. Nevermind enforce a ruling that states don't care about.

We live in strange times. Lawless times.

I didn't leave MA over gun rights. Sadly I was able to tolerate it. I left MA because I was afraid of it and it's people. Looking back a year, I have zero regrets. I went to MA for the 1st time in over a year just recently and I hadn't been that uncomfortable in memory. Those here who know my story, I left MA at great professional sacrifice. I was that worried about what I saw going on. Gun's weren't even on my radar. And sadly, I was right. Breaks my heart to see what MA is now compared to how I can remember it in my earliest memories in the 80's.

It's not like I wanted to move to FL. The people who know me personally were amazed I did it. I don't love FL. It ended up being nothing more than a life raft that I dove into. It was one hell of a rocky ride when I moved. Like no income for 10 months rocky. Like I have zero pension or retirement rocky. Like my previous job didnt pay into social security rocky. Like I have one hell of a shit tier retirement option(s) at this point rocky.

I only did it because I didn't see any other choice.
Click to expand...

The wording of the heller ruling wasn’t the best and that’s because to keep Kennedy as the 5th vote, he could dictate a lot. Kennedy was a terrible justice, he wanted to mediate between the sides, not be a judge.

The court is extremely different than the heller 5. It is a much more conservative court. Look beyond NYSRPA, the court ended roe, the most sacred thing to the media and left. The WV vs EPA case was a huge blow to the administrative state. The Maine school choice law, the football coach praying after a game, those are all big rulings. Next term they are going to eliminate affirmative action is school admissions, there’s an election case democrats will flip out over too.

The court has changed, it’s not the 4 conservatives and Kennedy, there are 6 reliable conservatives on most issue, 5 on nearly all. This was the first full term for the 6 conservative block and the liberal court watchers were devastated by the term, SCOTUS didn’t take some cases because the conservatives couldn’t trust Kennedy, now they have fellow justices they trust.

Be patient, it’s a very different court.
 
PappyM3 said:
When there is a groundbreaking ruling about civil rights that directly affects their profession… then yes, I do. Professional competence and awareness of things affecting your job is something I expect of people. I’m not surprised when people fail to meet those expectations, but I still have those expectations.
Click to expand...
That's a perfectly understandable expectation for people who personally pay the price of being wrong. Not so much for government in general nor police in particular.

Here's a dirty secret about law enforcement training: most of it is based in "plausible ignorance". Officers are taught how to get around the law, not how to comply with the spirit of it (I refer skeptics to any academy class on 4A/Search and Seizure).

Line officers are legally ignorant--without any personal liability--until they've formally been taught otherwise.
 
Dench said:
Heres my concern. SCOTUS said in Heller that you cannot ban firearms in "common use." They said it in direct, non legalese language that zero people would objectively find vague. Yet plenty of states openly ignore this. MA not only ignores it, but acknowledged years ago that AR-15's were still being sold in huge amounts despite the states attempt to ban them, which lead to the Healy BS MA is now stuck under. MA literally admitted AR-15s were in the common use and then adjusted it's ban accordingly. Double strike against Heller/McDonald right there. Zero repercussions.

So, that's my concern. And that's my gripe. SCOTUS tends to say a lot of things. And the same a**h***s who got dragged to SCOTUS seem to have zero problem both ignoring the rulings and definitely flaunting that fact.

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy some people in MA will benefit. Regardless at the end of the day, MA is a statist woke shit hole filled with dangerous insecure people who want to control you. SCOTUS seems to have zero teeth anymore. Hell, look at all the bullshit frat boy Kavanaugh has to put up with. The kid cant even get dinner. People are trying to kill him. People are stalking his house. All/most of this is illegal. Does the federal government act? No.

So, at the end, I suppose not only is this ruling useless, so is the court. The court can't even provide for it's own defense against people who break the law stalking it's judges. Nevermind enforce a ruling that states don't care about.

We live in strange times. Lawless times.

(and since a few people brought up the FL thing...)

I didn't leave MA over gun rights. Sadly I was able to tolerate it. I left MA because I was afraid of it and it's people. Looking back a year, I have zero regrets. I went to MA for the 1st time in over a year just recently and I hadn't been that uncomfortable in memory. Those here who know my story, I left MA at great professional sacrifice. I was that worried about what I saw going on. Gun's weren't even on my radar. And sadly, I was right. Breaks my heart to see what MA is now compared to how I can remember it in my earliest memories in the 80's.

It's not like I wanted to move to FL. The people who know me personally were amazed I did it. I don't love FL. It ended up being nothing more than a life raft that I dove into. It was one hell of a rocky ride when I moved. Like no income for 10 months rocky. Like I have zero pension or retirement rocky. Like my previous job didnt pay into social security rocky. Like I have one hell of a shit tier retirement option(s) at this point rocky.

I only did it because I didn't see any other choice. I just couldnt tolerate the lawlessness anymore. In my case it was woke BS forced into my life and the COVID-19 reaction from the state that greatly limited my ability to freely travel, etc. Was the slap in the face that finally woke me up. I'll never forget when I talked with my lawyer about my work policy stating I couldnt leave MA. I asked is it legal? He said no. He also said never in a million years would a MA court find in my favor. That's a Banana Republic.

So, I wish you guys luck. But given Miller, Heller and McDonald, well, you know how those ones worked out.
Click to expand...


From the Washington post


With sweep and speed, Supreme Court’s conservatives ignite a new era​

The term that ended this week is eliciting comparisons to the most striking in the high court’s 233-year history​

Image without a caption

By Robert Barnes
Updated July 2, 2022 at 2:31 p.m. EDT|Published July 2, 2022 at 6:00 a.m. EDT

The avalanche of change achieved by the Supreme Court’s conservative majority this term spans the breadth of American life, and its work draws comparisons to the most momentous decisions in the court’s history.
Its signature moment — erasing the constitutional right to abortion extended by the court nearly 50 years ago in Roe v. Wade — would have been enough to highlight the term. The court’s ruling in Dobbs v. Jackson Women’s Health Organization was the rare decision whose impact was felt within hours, as Republican-led states began prohibiting elective abortions, and will play out over years.
But the justices of what scholars say is one of the most conservative courts in decades did far more than that.
They continued a string of victories for conservative religious groups that dismantle the old rules regarding the role of religion in public life. After a decade of Supreme Court inaction, they expanded Second Amendment jurisprudence to bless the right to carry a weapon outside the home. And in a final flourish, the court’s dominant six-justice bloc limited the ability of government agencies to issue sweeping regulations of health, safety and the environment without specific authorization from Congress.

Going into the term, the biggest question was not so much in what direction the court was headed, but how quickly it was traveling,” said Gregory G. Garre, who represented President George W. Bush’s administration at the Supreme Court.
Dench said:
Heres my concern. SCOTUS said in Heller that you cannot ban firearms in "common use." They said it in direct, non legalese language that zero people would objectively find vague. Yet plenty of states openly ignore this. MA not only ignores it, but acknowledged years ago that AR-15's were still being sold in huge amounts despite the states attempt to ban them, which lead to the Healy BS MA is now stuck under. MA literally admitted AR-15s were in the common use and then adjusted it's ban accordingly. Double strike against Heller/McDonald right there. Zero repercussions.

So, that's my concern. And that's my gripe. SCOTUS tends to say a lot of things. And the same a**h***s who got dragged to SCOTUS seem to have zero problem both ignoring the rulings and definitely flaunting that fact.

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy some people in MA will benefit. Regardless at the end of the day, MA is a statist woke shit hole filled with dangerous insecure people who want to control you. SCOTUS seems to have zero teeth anymore. Hell, look at all the bullshit frat boy Kavanaugh has to put up with. The kid cant even get dinner. People are trying to kill him. People are stalking his house. All/most of this is illegal. Does the federal government act? No.

So, at the end, I suppose not only is this ruling useless, so is the court. The court can't even provide for it's own defense against people who break the law stalking it's judges. Nevermind enforce a ruling that states don't care about.

We live in strange times. Lawless times.

(and since a few people brought up the FL thing...)

I didn't leave MA over gun rights. Sadly I was able to tolerate it. I left MA because I was afraid of it and it's people. Looking back a year, I have zero regrets. I went to MA for the 1st time in over a year just recently and I hadn't been that uncomfortable in memory. Those here who know my story, I left MA at great professional sacrifice. I was that worried about what I saw going on. Gun's weren't even on my radar. And sadly, I was right. Breaks my heart to see what MA is now compared to how I can remember it in my earliest memories in the 80's.

It's not like I wanted to move to FL. The people who know me personally were amazed I did it. I don't love FL. It ended up being nothing more than a life raft that I dove into. It was one hell of a rocky ride when I moved. Like no income for 10 months rocky. Like I have zero pension or retirement rocky. Like my previous job didnt pay into social security rocky. Like I have one hell of a shit tier retirement option(s) at this point rocky.

I only did it because I didn't see any other choice. I just couldnt tolerate the lawlessness anymore. In my case it was woke BS forced into my life and the COVID-19 reaction from the state that greatly limited my ability to freely travel, etc. Was the slap in the face that finally woke me up. I'll never forget when I talked with my lawyer about my work policy stating I couldnt leave MA. I asked is it legal? He said no. He also said never in a million years would a MA court find in my favor. That's a Banana Republic.

So, I wish you guys luck. But given Miller, Heller and McDonald, well, you know how those ones worked out.
Click to expand...

 
Hoover said:
NES is definitely not the view.

The view in a nutshell. 4 of the dumbest, most annoying women you can imagine talking about topics they have no understanding of. 4 Elizabeth warrens with mumbles meninos IQ
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I dunno, reading this thread I’d say we’re close
 
Dench said:
I'm going to take a klonopin, wake me up when its worth it. [rofl]
Click to expand...

It could be awhile.

I'm sure that when SCOTUS ruled in Brown v Board of Education, a lot of people thought segregation was going to end NOW! But that was in 1954, and there were still years of struggle ahead. Hell, "liberal" Boston didn't get its schools fully desegregated until the 1980s! And de facto school segregation still exists in a lot of places.

I think we should look at Bruen the same way. This is as huge for our movement as Brown was for anti-segregationists. But it will take years for the effects to be fully realized. So no need to get up early.
 
Dench said:
I'm going to take a klonopin, wake me up when its worth it. [rofl]
Click to expand...

One other indication from SCOTUS is how they handled the 4 gun cases pending cert. 2 mag limit case, an AWB and an open carry case. They could have denied cert and moved on. Instead they granted cert, vacated them and remanded them to the lower courts to essentially correct their errors.

We know how strong on 2A Alito and Thomas are but remember kavanaugh voted to strike down DCs AWB when he was on the circuit court of appeals and Barrett voted to strike down the ban on non violent felons having 2A rights. And Gorsuch hasn’t disappointed on 2A cases yet nor has Roberts.
 

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