Supreme Court - NYSRPA v. Bruen - Megathread

When there is a groundbreaking ruling about civil rights that directly affects their profession… then yes, I do. Professional competence and awareness of things affecting your job is something I expect of people. I’m not surprised when people fail to meet those expectations, but I still have those expectations.
There are lots of laws about lots of things. Sure we're all focused on one thing here, but any practical effect of this ruling probably came down in a briefing with 30 other things that are only marginally relevant to the practical day-to-day world of law enforcement, where the usual MO in the street is to arrest people when they're doing "something wrong" and figure out the charges later. I bet they hear a heck of a lot more for stuff like weed legalization or motor vehicle law changes that they deal with daily.

Basically, how often does the topic of LTC restrictions come up for the average cop? I'm guessing approximately never. Serious question, though, I try to keep up with some of the more interesting cases but maybe I missed it. I don't think I've ever heard of it being charged except as a pileon though.
 
It could be awhile.

I'm sure that when SCOTUS ruled in Brown v Board of Education, a lot of people thought segregation was going to end NOW! But that was in 1954, and there were still years of struggle ahead. Hell, "liberal" Boston didn't get its schools fully desegregated until the 1980s! And de facto school segregation still exists in a lot of places.

I think we should look at Bruen the same way. This is as huge for our movement as Brown was for anti-segregationists. But it will take years for the effects to be fully realized. So no need to get up early.
And just think that the left is now obsessed with it's own version of segregation and de facto caste systems.

Back and forth we go. Or maybe more like a circle? Or swirling around something? Like a drain? Dunno.

I'd be pretty thrilled at this point if the US just got it over with and broke up into several countries.

To those who think Bruen was not a big win .... just imagine how big a loss it would have been if Scotus backs an interest-balancing approach and affirmed that peoples importance and station in life may be considered when deciding who can carry in public.

For sure. which is one of the reasons why I didnt want it heard. The win is... well.. you know and the loss is an actual legit loss. It was nothing more than an easy near consequence free 2A case for SCOTUS. I was saying that as soon as this case got granted cert. It was an easy way for SCOTUS to claim it sorta occasionally cares about 2A cases.

If I was an anti gun person I'd be thrilled with this case. We just blew out load on a complete waste of time. Any anti with a brain knows it.
 
I love the enthusiasm. Just don't see it. I'm pretty beat down and never been more jaded towards our legal system .
You're what's wrong with Massachusetts. The more pro 2a people leave, the less resistance they face while attempting to strip Americans of their rights. Good for you for leaving fella, but get your negativity out of here.

The ruling was a good thing. If your going to take a good thing and complain about it immediately and assume the worst that's your problem. Obviously in Massachusetts gun rights will be a fight. If eventually we do manage to gain back some ground, just know you weren't a part of the solution. No need to wake you up.
 
You're what's wrong with Massachusetts. The more pro 2a people leave, the less resistance they face while attempting to strip Americans of their rights. Good for you for leaving fella, but get your negativity out of here.

The ruling was a good thing. If your going to take a good thing and complain about it immediately and assume the worst that's your problem. Obviously in Massachusetts gun rights will be a fight. If eventually we do manage to gain back some ground, just know you weren't a part of the solution. No need to wake you up.
I'd personally assume the people who are wrong with MA are the ones trying to turn kids into transsexuals', taking peoples rights away etc.

I just finally had enough of the shit. Couldn't afford NH/ME and FL was a distant 3rd option. Operation "escape MA" has been an NES pastime since this forum was made. Using your "whats wrong with MA" logic a shit ton of members would fall into it.

I'm grouchy about the case simply because I can't see it going the way people think/hope it will. Just like Heller. Don't get me wrong, I hope it works. I just cant see it being some huge slam dunk. LTC restrictions are trivial. Move the f*** out of the city to another local one, big F'ing deal. I did it when I lived in MA. Turns out I needed to move a lot further away.
 
To those who think Bruen was not a big win .... just imagine how big a loss it would have been if Scotus backs an interest-balancing approach and affirmed that peoples importance and station in life may be considered when deciding who can carry in public.

They should have done away with permits.



View: https://youtu.be/BrL8j3rWSyA
 
We just blew out load on a complete waste of time. Any anti with a brain knows it.

Except antis in CA, MD, MA, and the other states who've already changed their arbitrary and oppressive policies into something much more in line with 2A. Is it perfect? Nope. But it's much better for millions of people in those states.

And now NYS has doubled down, and will soon get its ass kicked some more. And there are four AWB/capacity cases that are going to be reheard with a much tighter level of scrutiny. It's a good beginning. And the only reason antis aren't freaking out is because they care more about Roe, and that decision came down the next day.
 
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Except antis in CA, MD, MA, and the other states who've already changed their arbitrary and oppressive policies into something much more in line with 2A. Is it perfect? Nope. But it's much better for those millions of people.

And now NYS has doubled down, and will soon get its ass kicked some more. And there are four AWB/capacity cases that are going to be reheard with a much tighter level of scrutiny. It's a good beginning. And the only reason antis aren't freaking out is because they care more about Roe, and that decision came down the next day.

An AWB case would be very nice. I'm sure the ruling would be written like a mystery novel with an incomplete ending, but I would welcome it regardless.
 
An AWB case would be very nice. I'm sure the ruling would be written like a mystery novel with an incomplete ending, but I would welcome it regardless.
Patience, grasshopper.

There was never going to be a magic bullet. It took decades to get here; it'll take awhile to dig out.
 
Patience, grasshopper.

There was never going to be a magic bullet. It took decades to get here; it'll take awhile to dig out.

We're hoping for an AWB case when US vs Miller already covered that 90 years ago.

Not sure what patience will do me in the perpetual f***-f*** game.
 
I'd personally assume the people who are wrong with MA are the ones trying to turn kids into transsexuals', taking peoples rights away etc.
I would agree, however I also don't like you, or people like you. You run away, and stay involved in the state politics only to circulate you're shit attitude. Like I said, good for you for moving. However just know you're an a**h*** if you move back, just because we have gained ground back in the future.

If you hope to have freedoms restored one day in MA, having people HERE who voice their opinions and educate people HERE is important. If that isn't important to you, why are you on this forum?
 
I would agree, however I also don't like you, or people like you. You run away, and stay involved in the state politics only to circulate you're shit attitude. Like I said, good for you for moving. However just know you're an a**h*** if you move back, just because we have gained ground back in the future.

If you hope to have freedoms restored one day in MA, having people HERE who voice their opinions and educate people HERE is important. If that isn't important to you, why are you on this forum?
I suspect if you had the time or interest to read about the reasons I ended up moving you'd probably not dislike me for the act of leaving. And if you still disliked me, well, I can't do much about it.

As stated here though, 2A was at the very bottom of reasons for me moving. My life was turning into something of a complete nightmare/crisis for myself and my wife between our jobs, the insane draconian COVID-19 policies we had to deal with and some unbelievably insane stuff going on with my childs IEP program. I've spoken about it here on NES several times in depth. It was just time to go. We gave it about 12 months and simply could no longer tolerate it anymore.

When I say moving to FL was like jumping into a life raft you can take that verbatim.

I'm not involved in MA politics. I am allowed to give my opinions on whatever I want. I have no clue who you are, and if you don't like me simply add me to ignore. I'll forget you're here and you'll have one less person who bothers you here on NES.
 
I suspect if you had the time or interest to read about the reasons I ended up moving you'd probably not dislike me for the act of leaving. And if you still disliked me, well, I can't do much about it.

As stated here though, 2A was at the very bottom of reasons for me moving. My life was turning into something of a complete nightmare/crisis for myself and my wife between our jobs, the insane draconian COVID-19 policies we had to deal with and some unbelievably insane stuff going on with my childs IEP program. I've spoken about it here on NES several times in depth. It was just time to go. We gave it about 12 months and simply could no longer tolerate it anymore.

When I say moving to FL was like jumping into a life raft you can take that verbatim.
I don't care one bit why you moved. It's the fact that you moved, and are now attempting to make MA residents feel like their battle to restore their rights is useless.
 
I don't care one bit why you moved. It's the fact that you moved, and are now attempting to make MA residents feel like their battle to restore their rights is useless.
Keep it up and I'll mail in some (D) votes back to MA [rofl]

I'm obviously not doing what your implying either. Nice try new account troll guy. yawn.
 
OK, a whole lot of reading here. Can I ask something? What impact does the Bruen/NYSRPA case have on Massachusetts today?

I thought the immediate impact is the removal of "suitability" and the need to have reference letters/letters of recommendation for LTC's. Is this true or is it not true? If true, why has the state made other changes and "guidance"/suggestions for police departments, yet the state application itself still has the sections for these 2 things? Ditto for the many cities and towns who have their own applications modeled after the state's.

To shorten this up, it looks like the only thing which has changed so far is the removal of restrictions, but even THAT is still on the application form. See my earlier post here: POST # 2625
You’ve asked this about ten times already. Do you only read replies to your comments?
 
I'd be pretty thrilled at this point if the US just got it over with and broke up into several countries.
Right, because that Civil War thing was so great the last time around. [rolleyes]

The US lost about 2% of its population killed during the Civil War. That would be about 6.6 million people. Given how the US is far more interconnected now and far fewer live on farms (and thus are dependent upon others for survival), the chances are the number of dead would be far greater next time around.

Dude.
 
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One thing to remember is that the RKBA and the 2nd Amendment has been making good progress, even without Bruen. Look at the right to carry timeline:

Right_to_Carry,_timeline.gif
In 1986 there was only one green and sixteen reds. Pre Bruen it was no reds and only 8 yellows. Now Bruen will force those 8 yellows to blue, but we had made good progress in all but the bluest of blue states without Bruen. I’d much rather depend on winning at the ballot box rather than having to depend on the Supreme Court, though it is nice to have them on our side for a change, particularly for us blue staters.

ETA Though the elimination of the last No-Issue (Illinois) was the result of SCOTUS’s Heller and McDonald rulings.
 
Right, because that Civil War thing was so great the last time around. [rolleyes]

The US lost about 2% of its population killed during the Civil War. That would be about 6.6 million people. Given how the US is far more interconnected now and far fewer live on farms (and thus are dependent upon others for survival), the chances are the number of dead would be far greater next time around.

Dude.

I certainly don't want a war.

If a state wanted to leave I'd say good luck. And I'd mean it. I get it though. The US breaking up without violence is unlikely.
 
The stage is set for fall of assaults weapons ban and magazine bans. It may take some time to play out nationally, but the clock is ticking.
This ruling, and other posturing up is likely to make an AWB difficult to slam through. And. 1994 election level problems or worse WILL happen.

That said, my fear will likely play out. Expect to see a push not for guns in the form of an AWB, or mags, in the form of a 15rnd limit nation wide, but on ammo. Limiting sales through banks and CC company coordination, requiring a permit to purchase, stamping, making ammo sales require proof of purchase and no cash, no cross state line ammo, etc.
 
Didn’t know that - that makes it even less comparable to a home invasion.
Yea, the true message there was "patrons have no right to help". It was like the opposite of the cruelness of the final Seinfeld episode where they all get thrown in the clink for failing to help someone.
 
One thing to remember is that the RKBA and the 2nd Amendment has been making good progress, even without Bruen. Look at the right to carry timeline:

View attachment 635937
In 1986 there was only one green and sixteen reds. Pre Bruen it was no reds and only 8 yellows. Now Bruen will force those 8 yellows to blue, but we had made good progress in all but the bluest of blue states without Bruen. I’d much rather depend on winning at the ballot box rather than having to depend on the Supreme Court, though it is nice to have them on our side for a change, particularly for us blue staters.

ETA Though the elimination of the last No-Issue (Illinois) was the result of SCOTUS’s Heller and McDonald rulings.
would be nice to see FL get on that list. the state is obsessed with licensing for everything so I suspect it's a hard pill to swallow simply for that reason alone. the governor is still pushing it though.

The state guard thing has also been rolled out very slow. They finally hired a person to lead it but have yet to reach out to any of the applicants. Lots of people are starting to wonder about that. zero communication.

FL is really weird when the state is involved in stuff.
 
If the beat cops don’t know, it’s their Chief’s responsibility to tell them. That’s why the eventual lawsuits will be naming the chiefs. They’re accountable for training their guys.
Part of the standard is knew or should have known - because of the importance and publicity of this opinion it is unlikely that any individual officer did not know the about it and it would be obvious dereliction of duty to not ask for clarification before enforcement.
It's the CITY/TOWNS responsibilty to train/inform it's Officers of changing laws, rules, etc. Chain of Command starts with Mayor/Selectman/Town Manager then to City Attorney then to COP. In this specific situation they would be either stupid or negligent not to issue a formal memo, policy change to it's employees.
This ∆

People in red towns need to engage with the mayor/town council to legally advise them that the AG memo doesn't follow Bruen therefore once made aware by competent counsel they will lose any immunity to civil rights actions.

I've been pretty much offline for the week in Colonial Williamsburg so I haven't seen if Com2A or an individual 2A lawyer has responded to the offer of funding that has unofficially been tossed around.

BTW - if you haven't seen Colonial Williamsburg it is a must. The sessions with the "founding fathers" is worth the trip alone. The actors, even when answering open questions, show deep constitutional knowledge and obvious patriotism.
 
And just think that the left is now obsessed with it's own version of segregation and de facto caste systems.

Back and forth we go. Or maybe more like a circle? Or swirling around something? Like a drain? Dunno.

I'd be pretty thrilled at this point if the US just got it over with and broke up into several countries.



For sure. which is one of the reasons why I didnt want it heard. The win is... well.. you know and the loss is an actual legit loss. It was nothing more than an easy near consequence free 2A case for SCOTUS. I was saying that as soon as this case got granted cert. It was an easy way for SCOTUS to claim it sorta occasionally cares about 2A cases.

If I was an anti gun person I'd be thrilled with this case. We just blew out load on a complete waste of time. Any anti with a brain knows it.

You have not read the opinion and don’t understand how expansive it was. The NY law wasn’t the sole issue. This is from fox and one of the biggest anti gun “reporters” The Supreme Court’s new gun ruling means virtually no gun regulation is safe



The Supreme Court’s 6-3 decision in New York State Rifle & Pistol Association v. Bruen is a devastating decision for anyone who cares about reducing gun violence.

It massively expands the scope of the Second Amendment, abandons more than a decade of case law governing which gun laws are permitted by the Constitution, and replaces this case law with a new legal framework that, as Justice Stephen Breyer writes in dissent, “imposes a task on the lower courts that judges cannot easily accomplish.”

The immediate impact of Bruen is that handguns — which are responsible for the overwhelming majority of gun murders in the United States — are likely to proliferate on many American streets. That’s because Bruen strikes the types of laws that limit who can legally carry handguns in public, holding that “the Second and Fourteenth Amendments protect an individual’s right to carry a handgun for self-defense outside the home.”

The case involves a 109-year-old New York state law which requires anyone who wishes to carry a handgun in public, whether openly or concealed, to demonstrate “proper cause” before they can obtain a license to do so. An applicant must show “a special need for self-protection distinguishable from that of the general community or of persons engaged in the same profession.”

Similar laws exist in five other states — California, Hawaii, Maryland, Massachusetts, and New Jersey — plus the District of Columbia. Together, these jurisdictions make up about a quarter of the US population, and a much higher percentage of the country’s urban population. In effect, that has meant very few residents of those states have been able to legally carry a handgun in public.

Writing solely for the Court’s Republican appointees, Justice Clarence Thomas strikes down New York’s century-old law. He also establishes a whole new (confusing) framework for evaluating gun control laws. Bruen establishes a “text, history, and tradition test” that purports to be rooted in, well, the text of the Constitution, and the history of English and early American gun laws.

In reality, however, Thomas’s new test takes extraordinary liberties with the text of the Second Amendment, which explicitly states that the purpose of the right to bear arms is to protect service in a militia.

And when it comes to “history,” “the Court’s near-exclusive reliance on history is not only unnecessary, it is deeply impractical,” as Breyer chastises Thomas in dissent. That’s because judges are ill-equipped to conduct the kind of multi-century historical survey that Thomas’s new framework demands.

Worse, Thomas announces that the government bears the burden of showing that any gun law “is consistent with this Nation’s historical tradition of firearm regulation.” But if “tradition” is so important, why must New York’s 100-year-old law fall? As a practical matter, moreover, that Thomas places the burden of proof on the government means many gun laws are likely to fall because, when the historical record is unclear, the government loses.
 
This ruling, and other posturing up is likely to make an AWB difficult to slam through. And. 1994 election level problems or worse WILL happen.

That said, my fear will likely play out. Expect to see a push not for guns in the form of an AWB, or mags, in the form of a 15rnd limit nation wide, but on ammo. Limiting sales through banks and CC company coordination, requiring a permit to purchase, stamping, making ammo sales require proof of purchase and no cash, no cross state line ammo, etc.

But the standard dictated in NYSRPA says text and history, those regulations won’t comply with that. All the modern ideas for gun control were not what was used in 1791 or around the ratification of the 14th amendment.
 
Except antis in CA, MD, MA, and the other states who've already changed their arbitrary and oppressive policies into something much more in line with 2A. Is it perfect? Nope. But it's much better for millions of people in those states.

And now NYS has doubled down, and will soon get its ass kicked some more. And there are four AWB/capacity cases that are going to be reheard with a much tighter level of scrutiny. It's a good beginning. And the only reason antis aren't freaking out is because they care more about Roe, and that decision came down the next day.

2 mag cases, NJ and CA and one AWB, MD were remanded. There is an existing AWB case in CA which was assigned to a 3 judge appeals panel in CA/9th but that was on hold. That AWB was struck down by the district court judge and the 3 judge panel who has it now is 2 very conservative trump judges and one Obama. I’d be shocked if they didn’t uphold the district court decision which means an en banc attempt for CA or SCOTUS. That case is Miller vs bonta.

The mag case in CA was decided 2-1 to strike down the mag limit (a bush judge, a trump and a Obama). CA is screwed there, their arguments to uphold the ban have been gutted by NYSRPA. Similar with the mag case in NJ where it’s a trump judge, bush, and HW bush have the case.

The AWB case from Maryland goes back to a 3 judge panel of Clinton judge, Obama and trump. The Clinton judge wrote the dissent in the previous AWB case from MD, Kolbe vs hogan. He wanted to strike the AWB down, so he should join the trump judge and strike it down this time.

It’s not only that the cases,we’re remanded, they were remanded with the elimination of tiers of scrutiny and they are going to conservative judges who have already ruled against there laws.
 
You have not read the opinion and don’t understand how expansive it was. The NY law wasn’t the sole issue. This is from fox and one of the biggest anti gun “reporters” The Supreme Court’s new gun ruling means virtually no gun regulation is safe



The Supreme Court’s 6-3 decision in New York State Rifle & Pistol Association v. Bruen is a devastating decision for anyone who cares about reducing gun violence.

It massively expands the scope of the Second Amendment, abandons more than a decade of case law governing which gun laws are permitted by the Constitution, and replaces this case law with a new legal framework that, as Justice Stephen Breyer writes in dissent, “imposes a task on the lower courts that judges cannot easily accomplish.”

The immediate impact of Bruen is that handguns — which are responsible for the overwhelming majority of gun murders in the United States — are likely to proliferate on many American streets. That’s because Bruen strikes the types of laws that limit who can legally carry handguns in public, holding that “the Second and Fourteenth Amendments protect an individual’s right to carry a handgun for self-defense outside the home.”

The case involves a 109-year-old New York state law which requires anyone who wishes to carry a handgun in public, whether openly or concealed, to demonstrate “proper cause” before they can obtain a license to do so. An applicant must show “a special need for self-protection distinguishable from that of the general community or of persons engaged in the same profession.”

Similar laws exist in five other states — California, Hawaii, Maryland, Massachusetts, and New Jersey — plus the District of Columbia. Together, these jurisdictions make up about a quarter of the US population, and a much higher percentage of the country’s urban population. In effect, that has meant very few residents of those states have been able to legally carry a handgun in public.

Writing solely for the Court’s Republican appointees, Justice Clarence Thomas strikes down New York’s century-old law. He also establishes a whole new (confusing) framework for evaluating gun control laws. Bruen establishes a “text, history, and tradition test” that purports to be rooted in, well, the text of the Constitution, and the history of English and early American gun laws.

In reality, however, Thomas’s new test takes extraordinary liberties with the text of the Second Amendment, which explicitly states that the purpose of the right to bear arms is to protect service in a militia.

And when it comes to “history,” “the Court’s near-exclusive reliance on history is not only unnecessary, it is deeply impractical,” as Breyer chastises Thomas in dissent. That’s because judges are ill-equipped to conduct the kind of multi-century historical survey that Thomas’s new framework demands.

Worse, Thomas announces that the government bears the burden of showing that any gun law “is consistent with this Nation’s historical tradition of firearm regulation.” But if “tradition” is so important, why must New York’s 100-year-old law fall? As a practical matter, moreover, that Thomas places the burden of proof on the government means many gun laws are likely to fall because, when the historical record is unclear, the government loses.
I hope it works out for all in those states.
 
I hope it works out for all in those states.

The elimination of tiers of scrutiny, intermediate scrutiny, affects ALL states.

You don’t seem to grasp the NYSRPA decision was very expansive and went far beyond the licensing saying Ny and by extension the other 5 states. Every 2A court case in the past 14 years has been upheld by using intermediate scrutiny, that’s out. Every case is open for re litigation and the standard now is text and history which states and federal governments won’t be successful in using to defend gun control.
 
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