Supreme Court - NYSRPA v. Bruen - Megathread

[CatSnoutSoup]

Wishful thinking and mere technical nitpicking?

:OR:

Nail in the coffin of 'Assault Weapon' bans using the ATF's own statement of common use to leveraging Caetano, Heller, and Bruen against them?

Banning AR-15 style firearms should now be a legal impossibility because of a factual concession by the ATF. The ATF made a concession that, when combined with the Supreme Court's common use test, means GAME OVER for semiautomatic gun bans.

 

[Hoover]

Yup, elections have consequences and Judicial appointments definitely have consequences for us. Imagine if Hillary had won in 2016, we'd be disarmed by now. Thank God for Donald Trump which is why the Dems are in full destructo mode.

The work to remake SCOTUS started in 2010 and took a big leap in 2013 (dems moronic change of the filibuster) and 2014 when the GOP took the senate. Without the 2014 election, Obama fills Scalias seat in 2016.

 

[Mesatchornug]

Wishful thinking and mere technical nitpicking?

:OR:

Nail in the coffin of 'Assault Weapon' bans using the ATF's own statement of common use to leveraging Caetano, Heller, and Bruen against them?

I see his point. I wonder if a guidance letter from the ATF counts as the smoking gun, as compared to (for example) an actual precedential decision, but that's above my pay grade. It certainly seems like strong supporting evidence if a case made its way before the Nine.

 

[SFC13557]

The work to remake SCOTUS started in 2010 and took a big leap in 2013 (dems moronic change of the filibuster) and 2014 when the GOP took the senate. Without the 2014 election, Obama fills Scalias seat in 2016.

You are correct, thanks Harry Reid, I hope you're rotting in hell.

 

[Hoover]

You are correct, thanks Harry Reid, I hope you're rotting in hell.

It was the whole bunch, reid, Obama, Schumer, warren, markey, etc. the whole dem party wanted it.

Without that vote to reduce the filibuster to a simple majority, there’s not way they’d get 60 to support Kavanaugh, Gorsuch or Barrett.

 

[SFC13557]

It was the whole bunch, reid, Obama, Schumer, warren, markey, etc. the whole dem party wanted it.

Without that vote to reduce the filibuster to a simple majority, there’s not way they’d get 60 to support Kavanaugh, Gorsuch or Barrett.

You are correct and if I remember correctly Cocaine Mitch warned Dirty Harry that his actions would come back to bite him in the ass.
Pure arrogance on the Dirty Dems part but that's what they do. Obama and Liawatha are true believers, Reid, Schmucky and Mr. Frosty(Markey) were/are career Pols who look out for themselves and covet power.

 

[Dennis in MA]

There are significant differences between MA and states like NY and NJ.

In NY and NJ, pretty much nobody except a VIP got a carry permit (except upstate NY issued "not valid in NYC" permits). Bruen opened up the concept of commoners being allowed to carry which created a "crisis to be solved" compounded by the fact that NY has a procedure allowing no public comment or debate to pass emergency legislation.

In MA there was really very little difference, and no "crisis". The issuance of permits was already under the thumb of police (and will take years of litigation to get the MA courts to understand the new standard), and over 90% of the licenses to possess handguns were unrestricted carry permits. Except for a few holdout jurisdictions like Brookline, nothing chanced at the macro level, and no mass hysteria of "omg - people without a government pension carrying guns".

CA is interesting because even VIPs were frequently denied carry permits in places like LA and SF, but they were available in other areas and valid in those cities. In effect, this mimicked the old Texas "traveler" law. MD was somewhat in the middle, and HI was even worse that NYC or LA (really surprised HI didn't pull the emergency legislation trick).

Damn you chatty Cathy's. Wow. I can't believe we have, like 5 pages of replies since Friday with effectively no news. . . .

I don't feel awful lucky. Just because we got a really shit law in 98 and then not much since - but not really - doesn't give me warm and fuzzies. Just after 98, most of the states mentioned were BETTER than mASS. Ergo, them removing rights a bit at a time and us doing it in one felled swoop isn't that much of a difference.

As far as issuing permits and such, I'm betting the issuance of permits in rural NY is no different than most of rural mASS. I'd say your insane asylum is near NYC and that's it. Possibly teh same for Joisey. And Cali.

HI has always been a special animal.

I'd put the "No carry in NYC" on par with "no assault weapons or hicaps in Boston" rule. It's the same thing. I'm tired of being told NY is "so much worse." How about we get some pushback here? Can we get summa dat???

I certainly don't feel lucky. Not in the least.

"There are significant differences between MA and states like NY and NJ.

In NY and NJ, pretty much nobody except a VIP got a carry permit (except upstate NY issued "not valid in NYC" permits). Bruen opened up the concept of commoners being allowed to carry which created a "crisis to be solved" compounded by the fact that NY has a procedure allowing no public comment or debate to pass emergency legislation."

Good point and you are correct. Bruen is nowhere near a threat to Ma. Pols as it is to NY/NJ Pols. As bad as we have it Ma., it's Nirvana for gunowners compared to NY/NJ/HI.

(Not sure if sarcasm. LOL)

 

[Rob Boudrie]

I'd put the "No carry in NYC" on par with "no assault weapons or hicaps in Boston" rule. It's the same thing. I'm tired of being told NY is "so much worse." How about we get some pushback here? Can we get summa dat???

Not really. The Boston AW ban is obscure, and does not appear to rigorously enforced. The "not valid in NYC" for upstate issued permits is real - someone with an upstate permit will be treated the same as if they do not have a permit by the NYPD - there will be no warning or counseling by the officer, just an arrest.

 

[Hoover]

This case is regarding firearm ban for non violent felons. 3 judge panel upheld the ban, today a majority of the full court agreed to rehear it en banc. That isn’t a guarantee of how they’ll vote but if they agreed with the 3 judge panel, they could have denied rehearing en banc.


View: https://twitter.com/2aupdates/status/1611446356622581776?s=61&t=moEBzVsz0iVoUcuUj2FooQ



View: https://twitter.com/2aupdates/status/1611446356622581776?s=61&t=moEBzVsz0iVoUcuUj2FooQ

 

[CatSnoutSoup]

This case is regarding firearm ban for non violent felons. 3 judge panel upheld the ban, today a majority of the full court agreed to rehear it en banc. That isn’t a guarantee of how they’ll vote but if they agreed with the 3 judge panel, they could have denied rehearing en banc.


View: https://twitter.com/2aupdates/status/1611446356622581776?s=61&t=moEBzVsz0iVoUcuUj2FooQ



View: https://twitter.com/2aupdates/status/1611446356622581776?s=61&t=moEBzVsz0iVoUcuUj2FooQ

Mark Smith predicting that if the small panel decision is overturned by the Circuit En Banc and the statute is struck down then this will end up in front of SCOTUS in short order.

 

[Hoover]

Mark Smith predicting that if the small panel decision is overturned by the Circuit En Banc and the statute is struck down then this will end up in front of SCOTUS in short order.

I’d say it’s a 10% chance SCOTUS would take it if the en banc panel reversed the 3 judge panel and struck the ban down. Barrett was in the minority in a similar case in the 7th circuit, Thomas, Gorsuch and Alito are very pro 2A. They would have the 4 needed there to take the case. I think if the en banc strikes the ban down and SCOTUS denied cert of a govt appeal of that, I think SCOTUS would view that a statement to other courts. They really want other courts to settle things without getting involved.

From the oral arguments, I think it’s likely the 4th circuit panel for bianchi vs Frosh (AWB, Mag limits) strikes that down. Maryland will probably ask for an en banc there. If the en banc vote is to not hear it, MD will be under enormous pressure not to appeal to SCOTUS. If the en banc upholds the AWB and mag limits, the 9th may be finished with their cases at that point and we may be SCOTUS to accept a number of cases and consolidate them and hear AWB.

The next 12-18 month should settle out a lot of things.

 

[Garys]

Similar to when the 7th overturned the IL "never get a CCW permit" policy in, I think 2012. The IL AG wanted to take it to SCOTUS but other "may, maybe not" issue states pressured her to bit the bullet (no pun intended) and eat the decision.

That bought them 10 years of f*ckery before Bruen.

I’d say it’s a 10% chance SCOTUS would take it if the en banc panel reversed the 3 judge panel and struck the ban down. Barrett was in the minority in a similar case in the 7th circuit, Thomas, Gorsuch and Alito are very pro 2A. They would have the 4 needed there to take the case. I think if the en banc strikes the ban down and SCOTUS denied cert of a govt appeal of that, I think SCOTUS would view that a statement to other courts. They really want other courts to settle things without getting involved.

From the oral arguments, I think it’s likely the 4th circuit panel for bianchi vs Frosh (AWB, Mag limits) strikes that down. Maryland will probably ask for an en banc there. If the en banc vote is to not hear it, MD will be under enormous pressure not to appeal to SCOTUS. If the en banc upholds the AWB and mag limits, the 9th may be finished with their cases at that point and we may be SCOTUS to accept a number of cases and consolidate them and hear AWB.

The next 12-18 month should settle out a lot of things.

 

[CatSnoutSoup]

I’d say it’s a 10% chance SCOTUS would take it if the en banc panel reversed the 3 judge panel and struck the ban down.

Why? If the federal law barring felons from firearms possession [18 U.S.C. 922(g)(1)] is ruled by the en banc panel to be unconstitutional as it pertains to nonviolent felons, and the U.S. Solicitor General's office asks SCOTUS to rule, why would there be just a "10%" chance of them granting certiorari?

Are you saying SCOTUS ignores a direct petition from the U.S. OSG?

 

[Hoover]

Why? If the federal law barring felons from firearms possession [18 U.S.C. 922(g)(1)] is ruled by the en banc panel to be unconstitutional as it pertains to nonviolent felons, and the U.S. Solicitor General's office asks SCOTUS to rule, why would there be just a "10%" chance of them granting certiorari?

Are you saying SCOTUS ignores a direct petition from the U.S. OSG?

I think they’ll let the circuits sort it out.

 

[dixidawg]

 

[Garys]

Did I miss the part where he actually quoted Roberts?

 

[dixidawg]

Did I miss the part where he actually quoted Roberts?

https://www.supremecourt.gov/publicinfo/year-end/2022year-endreport.pdf

 

[Garys]

TRO and injunction granted in New Jersey "sensitive places" and vehicle carry case.

Koons et al, v Reynolds, et al

IV. CONCLUSION Plaintiffs have demonstrated a probability of success on the merits of their Second Amendment challenge to the relevant provisions of Chapter 131 Section 7(a), which criminalizes carrying handguns in certain “sensitive places,” subparts 12 (public libraries or museums), 15 (bars, restaurants, and where alcohol is served), 17 (entertainment facilities), and 24 (private property), as well as section 7(b)’s ban on functional firearms in vehicles. The State may regulate conduct squarely protected by the Second Amendment only if supported by a historical tradition of firearm regulation. Here, Plaintiffs have shown that Defendants will not be able to demonstrate a history of firearm regulation to support any of the challenged provisions. The deprivation of Plaintiffs’ Second Amendment rights, as the holders of valid permits from the State to conceal carry handguns, constitutes irreparable injury, and neither the State nor the public has an interest in enforcing unconstitutional laws. Accordingly, good cause exists, and the Court will grant the motion for temporary restraints. An accompanying order of today’s date shall issue.

January 9, 2023 s/Renée Marie Bumb Date Renée Marie Bumb United States District Judge

 

[Garys]

Any possibility that a moderator can make this a Sticky? I think it's going to be an active thread for a few years as things sort out.

 

[Hoover]

TRO and injunction granted in New Jersey "sensitive places" and vehicle carry case.

Koons et al, v Reynolds, et al

Not surprising at all, the judge didn’t think very highly of the states arguments Friday and the assistant solicitor for NJ arguing didn’t have great answers.

NJ was beyond obnoxious with passing that bill. They originally didn’t exempt retired cops and at a hearing a lobbyist for cops said the bill was so restrictive, you couldn’t legally carry anywhere in the state. The amended it to exempt retired cops, DAs and judges but the restrictions were unchanged for everyone else. The NJ bill is quite a bit worse than NY’s which was insane.

I’d be very surprised I’d more than 20% of the NJ bill gets the ok from courts. And at 20%, a court may say the law passed is such a shell of the whole bill, it needs to be tossed completely because it’s not severable

 

[chuckules]

TRO and injunction granted in New Jersey "sensitive places" and vehicle carry case.

Koons et al, v Reynolds, et al

That's great news from one of the worst 2A offenders. I grew up in NJ and now live in MA. If one thinks MA is bad (and it is), it is nothing like NJ was and is for this stuff.

 

[pastera]

View: https://youtu.be/3OrBmcfsGhk


Like I said previously - NFA could fall now that Bruen is in play.

 

[DarthRevan]

View: https://youtu.be/3OrBmcfsGhk


Like I said previously - NFA could fall now that Bruen is in play.

 

[pastera]

That's okay - even if suppressors get removed from the NFA, everything fun is still illegal in Massachusetts.

 

[JonathonEmergency]

All of the dominos will eventually fall.

 

[40 Creedmoor fan]

All of the dominos will eventually fall.

Yeah, I have friends who passed away waiting for the dominos to fall...

 

[CatSnoutSoup]

That's great news from one of the worst 2A offenders. I grew up in NJ and now live in MA. If one thinks MA is bad (and it is), it is nothing like NJ was and is for this stuff.

True. I believe that is the basis for the new Massachusetts state flag...

 

[Picton]

Yeah, I have friends who passed away waiting for the dominos to fall...

I'm sure. But that's always the case. Plenty of black people died waiting for the last of the civil rights cases to work their way through the courts in the '60s, too.

For that matter, think of all the poor lifelong Red Sox fans who died before October 27, 2004.

Things take time, and it's always sad.

 

[Hoover]

What’s the status on the appeal of the 2nd circuit stay of the district court in the bruen response bill? I thoughts briefs were already supposed to be submitted to SCOTUS. I haven’t heard anything recently. Thanks.

 

[doxdsgn]

What’s the status on the appeal of the 2nd circuit stay of the district court in the bruen response bill? I thoughts briefs were already supposed to be submitted to SCOTUS. I haven’t heard anything recently. Thanks.

Here's is NY reply--- NY Reply in SCOTUS in 2nd Circuit stay