The .308 crap shoot

SKS Ray

SKS Ray

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I like to think I'm fairly knowledgeable when it comes to different types of surplus ammo. I can usually tell by head stamp what origin 8mm, 7.62x54, and 303 rounds are, but 308 continues to stump me. Maybe its because there is plenty of crap 308 ammo out there.

When I first got my Saiga with stamping on the receiver 308 WIN, I figured I was all set because I could shoot 308 military and 308 winchester ammo. The shop where I bought the gun only had some surplus 308 that the guy behind the counter said was pretty good. I don't even remember what type it was (small box of 20, Spanish I think) but it must have been corrosive because I wound up with rust in my gas tube and here and there in the bore. It took me lots of scrubbing and brushing and a few range trips with good commercial ammo to get the rifle back to normal.

These days when I see surplus 308 that looks old I'm a little iffy on whether or not to buy it. I know there is still plenty of good quality stuff out there but I also know there is plenty of crap too.
Now unfortunately it looks like the ammo I and many others bought of the NY dick head today at Wilmington was labeled as South African but is really Indian.
 
In general

South African (getting much harder to find)
Portuguese (very hard to find)
Indian 70s headstamp
English

are good


Bad
Indian 90s/00s headstamp

I've heard mixed reviews on the spanish
 
Surplus:

Hirtenberger (Austrian)
Portugese ( FNM and BF headstamps)
Santa Barbara (Spain)
DAG (German,I think)
Lake City (American)
TZ (Israel)
Radway Green (British)
South African

Newer stuff that is packaged in battle packs,but not surplus:

GGG (Lithuanian) the best I have seen in M80 ball specs
Privi Partizan (Serbia)
Igman (Can't remember the country,it's fairly recent on the market)

That's all I can recall off the top of my head at 0640HRS..

The problem with the Indian is that the newer stuff is run by India,whereas the older stuff was run by the British .gov and the QC was good.As far as I know,the later production Indian is the only stuff to avoid due to the inconsistencies in loading.Obviously there is corrosive stuff as well,but it's kind of rare.
 
USMA-82 said:
This website has been some help - there are others out there:

http://cartridgecollectors.org/headstampcodes.htm

The hard part is identifying what you have BEFORE buying it...
Click to expand...

I'm not sure if it was the same for all cans, but when I was looking at them they were all wrapped in clear tape so you couldn't open them. Unless you cut them open yourself. I guess going forward this is a warning sign to be suspicious of the ammo your buying. I was very close to buying a can of this for use in my M1A. Glad I passed.

For those that bought some of this, I wonder what would happen if you went back and demanded your money back due to fals advertising.
 
Headstamp is everything - anyone have one? Again, if it's British, shoot away - if it's Indian of recent manufacture, pull the projectiles, scrap the brass and use the powder to make sparkle trails in the driveway on the 4th. I bought a few clear plastic bags of this stuff and was able to push or pull many of the bullets out with no tools except my grubby fingers. The bullets smelled like they were sealed with roofing tar...
 
MassMark said:
Headstamp is everything - anyone have one?
Click to expand...

Here is the can they were in. I'm not sure if the seller actually knew what was in them because he let us open one and look at the ammo. But again I have no idea when it comes to 308 headstamps.

Heres a shot of the can label:

100_0531.jpg


And a shot of the headstamp of the rounds inside:

100_0529.jpg


I've been thinking of buying a FR8 rifle for a while, looks like now is a good time. Is this ammo safe to shoot in it as far as pressure wise, etc. ?

It looks like well made surplus ammo. All the bullets are seated well, its not real dirty, everything looks good about from what I can tell. Unlike some of the stories I've heard about older OFV headstamp stuff, this ammo looks to be made well.
 
Last edited:
Milsurps, you wanna maybe pull a couple of random bullets and measure powder charges and OAL, etc? I can do the same and we can get an idea of how consistent these are.
 
vellnueve said:
Milsurps, you wanna maybe pull a couple of random bullets and measure powder charges and OAL, etc? I can do the same and we can get an idea of how consistent these are.
Click to expand...

When it comes to anything to do with reloading my skills are the equivalent of a 5 yr old doing high school algebra.[hmmm]
 
Read some of the threads under the ammo section of warrifles.com - they are pretty adamant that 1970's Indian is pretty good stuff, but anything after 1980 was garbage. The reviews point out inconsistent powder loads (ranging from 40 grains to 44 grains in the same lot), poorly seated bullets, faulty primers, etc.

As the poster from Fulton Armory says, "You're gonna take a chance on your $1,500 rifle with ammo that was rejected by the Hindus?"

General concensus seems to be to take down the rounds and reuse the components. If I lived close enough to make another trip to Wilmington, I would bring it back and demand a refund.
 
I have some of the same headstamp, but '97. 97 is definitely among the suspect Indian surplus years and I plan to pull it for reloading.

Was 1996 a good year? [hmmm] I'd try to get a refund; failing that, pull it for reloading rather than run it. But it sure isn't SA.
 
vellnueve said:
http://www.ammo4guns.com/Home_Page.php

This is the guy's website.

Maybe someone can give him a call. If it was an honest mistake, he should be willing to refund. If not, I'd be happy to start a smear campaign.
Click to expand...


I'm the kind of guy that'd get a few people up for a rowdy road trip and get in trouble if I demanded a refund. I'm older and smarter now and those days are long gone though when I'd travel many miles to gain payback be it paid for doing so or for my own loss.
I'll chalk up this type of situation as a shoulda known better type deal because I can't really say I was burned since he let a few of us open a can and check out the ammo. Shame on me for not knowing better, thats the way I look at it.
 
vellnueve said:
Is the brass good?
Click to expand...

No one I've read about has reported being at all comfortable using Indian brass for anything more than a smelter. The bullets I pulled were covered with gooey roofing tar. I took them to a buddy who reloads and he chucked them. I took the brass to "the brass guy" that picks up at our range and lit the powder in the driveway...90's Indian is scrap as far as I'm concerned.

Ray, I didn't catch it - how much did you buy?
 
Some of the ARFCOM folks give the guy mixed reviews, mostly on the positive side. Biggest complaint seems to be poor communication and business skills.

Supposedly ammo4guns was booted from the site for posting "shill" accounts (posting under different names to provide favorable reviews and commentary for a business).

A few others suspect that ammo4guns is a business set-up by Eric the "Ammoman" (highly disregarded by the ARFCOM membership).

FWIW... I bought 2 South African 140 round battle packs today at the obscene price of $65.00 each. [shocked]

I can remember when it was around $100.00 for 500 rounds.[sad]
 
MassMark said:
Ray, I didn't catch it - how much did you buy?
Click to expand...

200 rounds for fairly cheap money compared to what most 308 goes for these days. That was the only reason I bought it.
I've posted about it on other forums and read replies about guys pulling and reloading using the same powder and components but with a measured amount and getting match grade accuracy.
 
Milsurps 4 Me said:
200 rounds for fairly cheap money compared to what most 308 goes for these days. That was the only reason I bought it.
I've posted about it on other forums and read replies about guys pulling and reloading using the same powder and components but with a measured amount and getting match grade accuracy.
Click to expand...

Well, I think that depends on the brass. Some Indian was loaded using British stockpile brass and others were loaded on Indian brass....
 
vellnueve said:
Is the brass good?
Click to expand...

The brass on the stuff I have eyeballs ok when it's not damaged by overseating. Occasionally I see one where the bullet is seated too far and there's some stretch, but yeah, the brass looks decent. So do most of the bullets when I've pulled 'em. There are posts on other forums where people report very good success after reloading. I'd definitely treat the brass like once-fired, though. I'm not an expert reloader; if someone wants to check a couple of pieces, I am happy to pull a couple freshly for their perusal up this way. Not that it's worth it!

The powder is another story. Variable, some stick, some ball, all in the same batch; other people with this stuff have reported similar variations, and I guess maybe they just switched mid-run, but you have to wonder if it's a big pile of the year's QC rejects.

Squibs are more common in the reports than case ruptures or the like, and with those at least one squib was full of powder; the primer just didn't ignite it. Actually, I haven't seen any case rupture or overpressure kaboom reports. A lot of squib complaints, though.

http://www.militaryfirearm.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=385

http://www.m14firinglineforum.com/upload/showthread.php?t=7205

http://www.militaryfirearm.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=617
 
Hmm.

What's a good way to kill the primers once I pull the bullets? Soak em in something? If I'm gonna reload, I'm going to use my own primers.
 
ammo

your down to the dregs. what are you going to shoot now?there is no more surplus. time to look into reloading.also your guns will last longer.
under $200 will get you turret press with all you need and pot and molds.most pistol shooters reload.and if you load and dont try for most power the brass will last.been reloading since 1939.[smile]
 

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