The Elusive 10lb Mass Compliant Trigger

[John42056]

Someone posted not long ago that the 365 had been submitted for testing, so hopefully it will not be too long.

On the agenda for the last EOPS meeting in Dec, the Lab Test Results were being reviewed for the Sig 365-9-BXR3-MS-MA 9mm, among others. So hopefully whenever the new list comes out (March maybe?) it'll be on there.

Gun Control Advisory Board (GCAB) Meeting

 

[daekken]

I believe my P226 purchased in MA has a 12-13 lb DA trigger pull. I've left it as is for now, and comparing to my free state stuff it's incredibly noticeable. I've been thinking about trying to drop DA down to around 9lbs.

 

[mothybee]

It was my first gun. It's got a good trigger on it now and is a decent shooter. As for the 10 pound trigger, you can replicate the feeling by inserting a big lump of soggy diaper between your finger and a trigger that has a safety on. It's pretty crappy. How this makes a gun "safer" is completely beyond me. But anyway...

Curious how you came to that comparison?

 

[whacko]

If it wasn't 10, it was close to it.
I bought one of the 1st gen M&P's when they came out, 2008?
First shot was always a long pull and broke horribly.
The sigma's had the same setup.

How is the "first shot" longer and break differently than the next shots on an m and p?

 

[Mark from MA]

Most triggers in Sig and Smith are lawyer/state induced 10# or more pulls for semi autos. I don't buy them.

I've always bought free state guns like my M&P shield 45, that came with a decent trigger, or guns with non retarded triggers like the Canik (one of the best triggers available) , Glock or Springfield Armory. All have OK triggers, even in MA.

I did put the flat face trigger and spring kit in my Shield 45, because I liked it so much, will be keeping it, and it was easy to do. Glocks I just do the 5 cent trigger job and it smooths them out decent.

To put a whole trigger job into an M&P is madness unless your 100% sure youll never sell it. People can barely give the things away, never mind add another 100 dollars on top of it.

 

[whacko]

Most triggers in Sig and Smith are lawyer/state induced 10# or more pulls for semi autos. I don't buy them.

I've always bought free state guns like my M&P shield 45, that came with a decent trigger, or guns with non retarded triggers like the Canik (one of the best triggers available) , Glock or Springfield Armory. All have OK triggers, even in MA.

I did put the flat face trigger and spring kit in my Shield 45, because I liked it so much, will be keeping it, and it was easy to do. Glocks I just do the 5 cent trigger job and it smooths them out decent.

To put a whole trigger job into an M&P is madness unless your 100% sure youll never sell it. People can barely give the things away, never mind add another 100 dollars on top of it.

I have an m and p 45 full size. Definitely the worst trigger of any handgun I've ever owned. I shoot it fine though but I seem to be able to shoot any gun with acceptable accuracy....the gun is reliable.....I keep it in the bedroom safe and take it out a few times a year and knock the cobwebs out of it.

I paid about $450 for it....Its worth what I paid for it. The m and p mass guns are all beater guns in my opinion. Nothing special.

 

[TrashcanDan]

How is the "first shot" longer and break differently than the next shots on an m and p?

It had something to do with reset. The very first mass compliant versions, long before apex started making parts for them.
Its like it had to stack up, then break. Like a double action revolver.
It was always the first shot, for whatever reason. Might have been that lever in the inside of the frame. The one the magazine pushes back into place. Had some different trigger bar and springs and whatever else.
That first shot always had a long pull, the 2nd and following shots seemed to have a shorter pull and less of a break.
Mag change, back to square one. I think the very first ones in this state were required to close the slide on an empty chamber instead of locking back.
Was a huge pain when they first came out.

Hop in the way back machine-
Trigger Pull MA Compliant Shield

 

[JackOfAllTrades]

I believe my P226 purchased in MA has a 12-13 lb DA trigger pull. I've left it as is for now, and comparing to my free state stuff it's incredibly noticeable. I've been thinking about trying to drop DA down to around 9lbs.

I took my MA special P226 and threw a shoelace around the trigger to a peak reading luggage scale. Every test I did in DA mode came in at 20.1 pounds. SA came in at 6.5.

I am not sure I trust those readings. I am also not sure I don't trust those readings.

 

[jhblaze1]

My SW M&P came with an insane 20 pound trigger pull. Greg Derr fixed it.

yeah he fixed mine too that was at 18lbs

 

[commodon]

How this makes a gun "safer" is completely beyond me.

I wholeheartedly agree, but the belief is that a child of the age of five years or less will not have the dexterity or strength to pull the trigger on a gun they find laying around or have access to. As for children over the age of five years, the belief is that a child of this age or older will have the knowledge or understanding that the handling of a found weapon is not allowed, etc.

 

[AHM]

I put all my triggers on diets...

Marie must be an absolute whiz at opening envelopes...

You can get rid of a 10 pound trigger but you can’t get rid of a manual safety.
At least easily.

Spoiler: Four step program for removing a Ruger Mk III magazine disconnect

1. Buy a Ruger Mk III/Mk IV pistol w/ magazine disconnect.
2. Buy a "Mk II Bushing" from Volquartsen.
3. ???
4. Post thread asking for help in reassembling pistol. Bonus points for photo attachment of detail stripped pistol that looks like a production still from This Island Earth.

(Yes, that's not the same thing as a manual safety).

 

[enbloc]

Marie must be an absolute whiz at opening envelopes...

And back scratching...

 

[pupchow]

I took my MA special P226 and threw a shoelace around the trigger to a peak reading luggage scale. Every test I did in DA mode came in at 20.1 pounds. SA came in at 6.5.

I am not sure I trust those readings. I am also not sure I don't trust those readings.

"(4) 940 CMR 16.05(2) shall not apply to handguns which have a hammer deactivation device." AKA, decocker.

https://www.mass.gov/files/documents/2017/09/29/940-cmr-16-00.pdf

 

[mousegunfan]

I'm considering buying a M&P 2.0 9mm (full-size). I buy all my guns with safeties. Can anyone confirm that this gun comes with the crappy trigger despite the manual safety?

Yes it will. The MA M&P2 trigger is worse than version 1. You could ask your dealer to order the free state version with safety. They might do it for you.

The 10lb trigger has to do with the manufacture calling the gun a double action only. By calling it just a striker, or single action leaving out the term DA is how others get their better triggers in MA. S&W is to dunce to change this because some police agency's only buy guns called DA only, even though the police buy the normal trigger.

It's all semantics like most feel good laws.

 

[Al-Jim19]

Yes it will. The MA M&P2 trigger is worse than version 1. You could ask your dealer to order the free state version with safety. They might do it for you.

The 10lb trigger has to do with the manufacture calling the gun a double action only. By calling it just a striker, or single action leaving out the term DA is how others get their better triggers in MA. S&W is to dunce to change this because some police agency's only buy guns called DA only, even though the police buy the normal trigger.

It's all semantics like most feel good laws.

Or just purchase the necessary free state parts from Brownells and fix SWs busted pistols.

 

[Boston4567]

Yes it will. The MA M&P2 trigger is worse than version 1. You could ask your dealer to order the free state version with safety. They might do it for you.

The 10lb trigger has to do with the manufacture calling the gun a double action only. By calling it just a striker, or single action leaving out the term DA is how others get their better triggers in MA. S&W is to dunce to change this because some police agency's only buy guns called DA only, even though the police buy the normal trigger.

It's all semantics like most feel good laws.

So I bought an M2.0 without a safety (before I saw your post), and hoo boy, it's worse than I could have possibly imagined. I have a Shield with thumb safety and figured it would be similar - I actually don't mind the trigger pull on the Shield. But it's way worse.

So what are my options now? Apex trigger kit?

 

[BarnB]

The original Walther PPS definitely had a regular and a MA trigger. Swap out the 'H' connector for the 'S' and your good to go.
Not an easy job tho.

 

[Deleted member 67409]

I've never shot a semi auto with a 10lb trigger. Honestly didn't know someone made them...or, that someone bought them. Still lots of great guns available in this awful state, just not all of them. Most seem not to mind the safety on 1911's.....I will probably buy a p365 this year with a safety if the make the list.

Most DA/SA guns have a first shot trigger pull weight of around 10+ pounds. The only exceptions to this heavy first trigger pull rule on DA/SA guns that I have shot (small and subjective sample size, I know) is the Walther P38/P1, the CZ82/83, and the Makarov.

The brand new 2019 Walther PPK and PPK/S will have 13lbs DA trigger pulls (the gun used to be produced by S&W, then went dark in terms of new production, and now will be back made by Walther USA). The PPK and PPK/S are on the Mass list. I owned two Beretta 92s (a Compact and a full-sized stainless) and both had about 13lbs DA trigger pulls out of the box. The Beretta 92 and variants thereof are on the Mass list.

The heavy first trigger pull on older-style concealed carry guns like the PPK or a generic snubby comes from an era when people had worse trigger control training. The PPK was a second or third generation semi-auto concealed carry pistol (JMB's FN1900 was the first I think) and has every safety feature possible - heavy first trigger pull, decocker, manual safety, and loaded chamber indicator. Not sure if the LCI is a standard feature or got added as time passed. Mass's law, as others have mentioned, came about due to misguided concerns for child safety.

Even SAO guns can have heavy triggers. A standard Browning Hi-Power MkIII (before production stopped) or an inexpensive GI 1911 come with 7lbs, 8lbs triggers.

 

[BrianWilson]

easier to fix than an unwanted safety tho

 

[ThePreBanMan]

I believe my P226 purchased in MA has a 12-13 lb DA trigger pull. I've left it as is for now, and comparing to my free state stuff it's incredibly noticeable. I've been thinking about trying to drop DA down to around 9lbs.

It's not tough, you just replace a spring inside the handle... Takes maybe 10 minutes and a flat head screwdriver to do.

 

[allen-1]

I wholeheartedly agree, but the belief is that a child of the age of five years or less will not have the dexterity or strength to pull the trigger on a gun they find laying around or have access to. As for children over the age of five years, the belief is that a child of this age or older will have the knowledge or understanding that the handling of a found weapon is not allowed, etc.

hahahahahahahaha

My favorite a**h***s from Connecticut are pushing both state and federal legislation to "properly secure" firearms. Massachusetts firearms owners are already familiar with this. CT owners aren't, and my friends here in Georgia would like to tar and feather Murphy and Blumenthal.

"Ethan's Law" Is Now Both Federal and State Legislation

Markle, owner of the house at 104 Seaside Ave. where Ethan was shot, kept three weapons in a cardboard box inside a large Tupperware container in the master bedroom closet, according to the report. Each gun was secured with a gun lock, the report said.


"In this case, there is no evidence that the gun owner knew that the juvenile had actual knowledge of where the guns were stored," Platt wrote.


Kristin and Michael Song have sued Markle and his business, Markle Investigations, claiming that Markle had failed to "properly store, keep and/or secure a gun on the premises when he knew or should have known that minors might gain access to the gun" and that he permitted unaccompanied minors on the premises, according to the Songs' complaint.


Scanlon's bill, co-sponsored by Sen. Christine Cohen, D- Guilford, would allow prosecutors to charge the owner of a gun that isn't properly stored.

 

[mousegunfan]

So I bought an M2.0 without a safety (before I saw your post), and hoo boy, it's worse than I could have possibly imagined. I have a Shield with thumb safety and figured it would be similar - I actually don't mind the trigger pull on the Shield. But it's way worse.

So what are my options now? Apex trigger kit?

Yes, apex will make it a nice trigger. Make sure to use all the parts in the kit. On the M&P 1 you could get away with just a new sear, but on this one replace all the parts in the kit.

The VP9, Sig P320 and XD mod 2 triggers are good in MA. Did you consider those before buying the M&P?

 

[drgrant]

The heavy first trigger pull on older-style concealed carry guns like the PPK or a generic snubby comes from an era when people had worse trigger control training.

LMAO the heavy trigger on a PPK is just a design flaw (hammer has no mass, so you need a big ass spring to compensate for it) it has nothing to do with "people having bad trigger control". You could wyatt earp a PPK and it would never go off. Hell most people think the f***ing gun is broken the first itme they try to shoot one.... I think the peak DA on some of those is well over 15 lbs.

-Mike

 

[drgrant]

I believe my P226 purchased in MA has a 12-13 lb DA trigger pull. I've left it as is for now, and comparing to my free state stuff it's incredibly noticeable. I've been thinking about trying to drop DA down to around 9lbs.

Oh sweet baby jesus christ, not this again.

A P226M has EXACTLY THE SAME SPRING that the free state gun has in it. I know because I've owned both.

EXACTLY THE SAME.

You can reduce it with a wolff kit though, even being conservative will knock it down a couple of lbs.

-Mike

 

[Deleted member 67409]

LMAO the heavy trigger on a PPK is just a design flaw (hammer has no mass, so you need a big ass spring to compensate for it) it has nothing to do with "people having bad trigger control". You could wyatt earp a PPK and it would never go off. Hell most people think the f***ing gun is broken the first itme they try to shoot one.... I think the peak DA on some of those is well over 15 lbs.

-Mike

Wasn't saying there was a correlation between trigger control and the PPK's trigger design. Like you said, though, you can wail on the trigger and the thing won't shoot.

 

[SKumar]

I think laws on trigger pull weight are absolutely ridiculous. There is zero evidence at all that having a heavy trigger pull leads to less accidental discharges or intentional shooting. I just don't get where at all they came up with that correlation. If anything, a heavy trigger pull makes it MORE dangerous. If you're in a self defense situation, and your shot is delayed because of the heavy trigger, you could risk your life! Make the gun easy to shoot. Anyone to wants to misuse a gun will do so regardless of obstacles getting in the way of shooting.

 

[daekken]

Oh sweet baby jesus christ, not this again.

A P226M has EXACTLY THE SAME SPRING that the free state gun has in it. I know because I've owned both.

EXACTLY THE SAME.

You can reduce it with a wolff kit though, even being conservative will knock it down a couple of lbs.

-Mike

That's interesting. For the record I wasn't comparing it to a non-MA P226, but rather my "free state stuff" - NH Glocks and a Shadow 2, etc. The Shadow might not be fair given it's a purpose-built pistol and not "service" style.
I do think I want to lighten my P226 up a tad.

 

[commodon]

I think laws on trigger pull weight are absolutely ridiculous. There is zero evidence at all that having a heavy trigger pull leads to less accidental discharges or intentional shooting. I just don't get where at all they came up with that correlation. If anything, a heavy trigger pull makes it MORE dangerous. If you're in a self defense situation, and your shot is delayed because of the heavy trigger, you could risk your life! Make the gun easy to shoot. Anyone to wants to misuse a gun will do so regardless of obstacles getting in the way of shooting.

The MA imposed 10lb trigger pull was implemented in regards to children. Specifically children five years old and less are incapable of pulling a ten pound trigger. It was never implemented in regards to adults.

 

[AHM]

I think the peak DA on some [PPKs] is well over 15 lbs.

15lbs? That's 1.0 Flemish Giants
(to use the new NES unit of weight).

 

[Boston4567]

Yes, apex will make it a nice trigger. Make sure to use all the parts in the kit. On the M&P 1 you could get away with just a new sear, but on this one replace all the parts in the kit.

The VP9, Sig P320 and XD mod 2 triggers are good in MA. Did you consider those before buying the M&P?

I have a Shield and I love it, so when I wanted to buy a full-size pistol I thought of the M&P. After reading good things about the M2.0, I figured it would be a good choice that would pair well with my Shield. Didn't realize what I was getting myself into trigger wise.