Trying some pocket guns

[dcmdon]

dcmdon - I agree. I generally don't like guns with external safeties and the ones I have with them I never use. I think for now I'll just work on getting better with my LCR. I can hit steel silhouettes at about 20 yards if I don't rush the trigger so at least that's something.

You are kidding, right? hitting steel at 60 ft with a snubbie is more than good enough. You're practically a superstar at that range. Ha. You are doing just fine. .

Now bring the targets in to more like 20 ft and try to get faster. Try to shoot with only a reference to the sights . Not a hard focus on the front.

The reality is that unless you live in a really big house, you'll never have a defensive justification for a 60 ft shot. I'm not saying to stop practicing at longer distances. But to add closer work to your practice.

 

[CCW]

Shot the Kahr PM9 and S&W Bodyguard .380 today. Not impressed.

The Kahr seems too big for pocket carry. It's roughly the size of my LCR but the brick-shaped frame make it much more noticeable in a pocket. The safety is really, really stiff, yet the trigger is too light to carry without the safety, imo. Also, the safety lever scratched the base of my thumb to the point of bleeding within one magazine. On the upside, I was really accurate with it and the controls and feel are similar to my Glock.

The Bodyguard is tiny, which is great for carrying but terrible for everything else. The slide release is too small; the safety is too small and difficult to disengage, but at least the trigger pull is so long that I wouldn't be opposed to carrying without the safety on. It doesn't lock back on empty, which I didn't like. Out of 35 or so rounds I had one FTF and one light primer strike (or dud, I suppose). The recoil is pretty light though for such a small gun.

I think I'll stick with my LCR .38 although I did also check out the Sig P238 and loved the 1911-like ergonomics and and controls, though I didn't shoot it.

Try the LC9s. BTW: I suspect that people out there are paying way much less attention to what's in your pocket than you think.

 

[dcmdon]

I would put the LC9S, G43, and Kahr P9 all in about the same size category.

All are much more difficult to shoot well than a small 380. (The 3 that actually shoot well are the Sig 238, Kahr P/CW 380 and the G42) And again, by "shoot well" I mean able to throw a lot of lead down range quickly wit reasonable accuracy.

Its not about slow fire accuracy. Its not about being able to "take" the recoil. Its about shot to shot recovery time and shooting fast at "minute of bad guy" accuracy.

I've said it many times before an I'm finally almost ready to do some real quantitative testing. I own a G42 which is a dream to shoot. And I own a G43, which is a bit snappy. I am faster and more accurate with the G42. What I don't know is how much faster and if it can make up for the .380s lower effectiveness.

Over the next couple of weeks, I'm going to come up with a timed course of fire and see how I do with each. I got some extended time with the 43 today for the first time. I got to put about 100 rounds down it. It's a bit snappy. Not different from the P9. Nothing painful. Just takes a bit longer to get back on target than a larger 9mm or the G42. I actually stopped shooting it because I got tired of loading my one 6 round magazine up every time i put just a few rounds through it. I definitely need to get more mags.

In the end I hope to have data like this.

1) it took me X seconds to put 4 hits each into 3 targets with the G42 and Y seconds with the G43. We'll call hits anything in an 8" circle. Or maybe anything in the interior of a LE Q target? Or maybe in a IDPA -0 box.

Another idea is to simply shoot steel racks and see how quickly I can do it with each.

While not scientific, it will give an idea of what a competent but by no mens outstanding shooter can do with each.

Don

 

[kalash]

You are kidding, right? hitting steel at 60 ft with a snubbie is more than good enough. You're practically a superstar at that range. Ha. You are doing just fine. .

Now bring the targets in to more like 20 ft and try to get faster. Try to shoot with only a reference to the sights . Not a hard focus on the front.

The reality is that unless you live in a really big house, you'll never have a defensive justification for a 60 ft shot. I'm not saying to stop practicing at longer distances. But to add closer work to your practice.

I have bigger toys for home defense The targets I'm hitting with the snub are big silhouettes so I'm not exactly doing 1" headshot groups.

Try the LC9s. BTW: I suspect that people out there are paying way much less attention to what's in your pocket than you think.

My father has one. Nice gun but too big for me to pocket carry.

 

[Badcat22]

Surprised you didnt like the PM9.. I love Kahrs.

As far as pocket guns go- even if it wont fit in your pocket, you could always put it in your purse...

 

[mursenary4]

My father has one. Nice gun but too big for me to pocket carry.

damn those are some skinny jeans then dude

 

[kalash]

damn those are some skinny jeans then dude

They're designer

 

[dcmdon]

damn those are some skinny jeans then dude

Not at all. The PM9 is small in silhouette, but as thick as any 9mm. And heavier than you think. That's the problem with the Pm9. People buy it for a pocket gun, then find it too heavy to carry. So they carry it IWB. And its smaller than a good IWB gun should. They keep it because they don't even know that Kahr makes a P9, which is superior to the PM9 in every application other than pocket carry.

- - - Updated - - -

Surprised you didnt like the PM9.. I love Kahrs.

As far as pocket guns go- even if it wont fit in your pocket, you could always put it in your purse...

The OP didn't say they didn't like it. They said it was too big.


This is to Kalash - if the PM9 is too big or heavy to comfortably carry in your pocket - I'm with you totally.

If its comfortable, but you think the PM9 is too big or thick because you are afraid of it printing, then just get the gun. Nobody notices. I carry in CT with a Glock 19 in an OWB retention holster with typically just a T shirt over it. I print like the US Treasury. Nobody notices.

I actually walked up to an Old Saybrook CT cop trying to find a store in town. I forgot I was wearing my G34 in an OWB holster. There was about 2 inches of slide hanging below the hem of my T shirt. She didn't notice. Maybe it was the gorgeous little 3 yr old girl in my arms at the time.

 

[dixidawg]

I find the PM9 really nice for pocket. I often forget I have it with me. A good belt helps.

 

[SubieGuy4]

I see a bunch of problems here. First, stop looking at .380s. There's a wealth of data and videos proving it just isn't good enough. Next, you don't need a slide release to be big because particularly with a small gun you want to just work the slide and not try to release with your thumb. Third, if you get a gun without a safety you won't have to worry about if you like the safety or not.

Get a Ruger LC9s Pro and a pocket holster. Add some good carry ammo and you're golden.

 

[paracarry]

I, have to guns that I pocket carry, the Sig 938, and the Walther PPS, I don't find the 938 snappy at all. 44 mag in one of the lite S&W revolvers yes,938 hardly.

 

[Gammon]

A "pocket gun" is one that can be fired from the pocket more than once. There are a lot of great snubbys on the market that fill the bill in calibers a lot more useful than 380. With practice, a snubby can be easily shot accurately out to 25yds+. I don't think semi autos make decent pocket guns.

 

[Gooman24]

A "pocket gun" is one that can be fired from the pocket more than once. There are a lot of great snubbys on the market that fill the bill in calibers a lot more useful than 380. With practice, a snubby can be easily shot accurately out to 25yds+. I don't think semi autos make decent pocket guns.

Are you for real? I know I sure as hell wouldn't be firing a revolver with the cylinder gap next to my body. A pocket gun is one you can carry in your pocket.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

 

[mursenary4]

A "pocket gun" is one that can be fired from the pocket more than once. There are a lot of great snubbys on the market that fill the bill in calibers a lot more useful than 380. With practice, a snubby can be easily shot accurately out to 25yds+. I don't think semi autos make decent pocket guns.

Youre gonna shoot your dick off kid

 

[mark056]

Are you for real? I know I sure as hell wouldn't be firing a revolver with the cylinder gap next to my body. A pocket gun is one you can carry in your pocket. Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

At this point I would have to ask are you for real ? One of the chief advantages of a concealed hammerless pocket revolver is that is can be fired through a coat pocket this technique has been taught by leading experts of the snub nose revolver such as Michael de Bethencourt and has been employed as a technique for as long as there has been metallic cartridge revolvers (and maybe before).

I was not going to comment on this thread but sadly that post is erroneous. For many reasons a small frame short barreled revolver in a pocket holster makes an ideal pocket carry handgun. YMMV may vary but kindly refrain from mudding the waters based on uninformed opinion with absolutely no basis in fact.

 

[Retired-LEO]

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/294368-COLT-PONY-POCKETLITE

 

[Leafy]

Whats the point of being able to shoot from your pocket, unless you're practically touching what you're shooing at you've got no chance of hitting it, this isnt the movies. Revolvers are all too bulky to pocket carry, the cylinder is too wide but with how big phones are getting these days with the right holster you could pocket carry a baby 9 in skinny jeans without drawing any suspicion.

 

[kalash]

How do you shoot from the pocket unless you carry without a holster?

Whats the point of being able to shoot from your pocket, unless you're practically touching what you're shooing at you've got no chance of hitting it, this isnt the movies. Revolvers are all too bulky to pocket carry, the cylinder is too wide but with how big phones are getting these days with the right holster you could pocket carry a baby 9 in skinny jeans without drawing any suspicion.

I disagree - my snubnose revolver is not too big for pocket carry.

 

[Leafy]

Maybe a jacket pocket. Even if I put even a .22 snubby in my pocket people would be wondering what the huge tumor on my leg was. The taurus just looks like I have a phone in each pocket or I have my wallet in my front pocket.

 

[MJ1]

P64

 

[Gooman24]

At this point I would have to ask are you for real ? One of the chief advantages of a concealed hammerless pocket revolver is that is can be fired through a coat pocket this technique has been taught by leading experts of the snub nose revolver such as Michael de Bethencourt and has been employed as a technique for as long as there has been metallic cartridge revolvers (and maybe before).

I was not going to comment on this thread but sadly that post is erroneous. For many reasons a small frame short barreled revolver in a pocket holster makes an ideal pocket carry handgun. YMMV may vary but kindly refrain from mudding the waters based on uninformed opinion with absolutely no basis in fact.

Where exactly did anyone other than you say jacket pocket?

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

 

[kalash]

Maybe a jacket pocket. Even if I put even a .22 snubby in my pocket people would be wondering what the huge tumor on my leg was. The taurus just looks like I have a phone in each pocket or I have my wallet in my front pocket.

I carry a .38spl snubby in dress slacks four days a week and in jeans on Fridays. I don't wear baggy clothes either.

 

[mark056]

Whats the point of being able to shoot from your pocket, unless you're practically touching what you're shooing at you've got no chance of hitting it, this isnt the movies. Revolvers are all too bulky to pocket carry, the cylinder is too wide but with how big phones are getting these days with the right holster you could pocket carry a baby 9 in skinny jeans without drawing any suspicion.

I guess I've been wrong all these years regarding pocket carry of revolvers and all the folks who have pocket carried revolvers for the past 100 years are wrong too. I won't confuse you with the facts because man, you just know.

Shooting through the pocket is a legitimate self defense technique that has been taught for decades. At contact distances sometimes it's a real world and not an option. Again I would refer to someone who is a master of the snub nose revolver Michael de Bethencourt or perhaps a world class shooter who I know who pocket carries an S&W 442. But what do they know?

Back in the 1920's and 30's there was a guy named Fitzgerald who worked for Colt. He carried two large frame New Service Rebolvers with chopped barrels, one in each pocket.

Sorry, but you sound like you are relatively new to shooting and CCW. The snub nose revolver has and continues to be a viable pocket carry option. This based on experience and training and not some theory formulated by concept based on belief as opposed to the real world.

 

[mark056]

Where exactly did anyone other than you say jacket pocket? Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

My bad or a pants pocket thank you for catching that one. I'll let you in on a little secret though: winter time CCW take your pocket carry snub from your pants and stick it in your winter coat if you are going to be outside. Much easier to access your roscoe than to dig through all those layers.

As far as pocket carry goes with pants, I have no problem concealing a j frame with normal slacks, dress suit trousers or jeans.

 

[turbo38gn]

This could be long... I like to carry the largest caliber, capacity gun I can at all times. When I pocket carry I have carried several different guns, depending on what I am wearing, where I am going and how long I'll be out. I've carried my MP9c, 40c, Shield9, Shield40.... my BG380's, several different J-frames, my favorite J-frame being the M351c, a 7 shot 22mag airlite. The ones I am going to most likely pocket carry are my BG380 or the 22mag. I don't use these pocket guns for target practice or a "fun" trip to the range. They are pocket, belly guns to me, period. I don't practice hitting targets at 25yds, 20,15, or 10yds.. I mostly, when I practice shooting, fire from no further than 10-15 ft. I also practice point and shoot drills, double taps and such. My feeling is if I'm ever in a situation where, according to Ma law, I can defend myself with a gun, it will have to be in very close quarters, opportunity to aim and shoot just isn't going to be there and most likely I'll be within a few feet of the perp.. my trigger on both my 22mag and BG380 is not a target trigger, cause it ain't a target gun... I'm not concerned with that, fact is, I like the stiffer trigger for a pocket gun for a little extra security I won't shoot my knee cap off..

All the guns mentioned here are great guns to someone, we all have different tastes and reasons for what we carry.

 

[Gooman24]

My bad or a pants pocket thank you for catching that one. I'll let you in on a little secret though: winter time CCW take your pocket carry snub from your pants and stick it in your winter coat if you are going to be outside. Much easier to access your roscoe than to dig through all those layers.

As far as pocket carry goes with pants, I have no problem concealing a j frame with normal slacks, dress suit trousers or jeans.

Again no one is saying don't pocket carry a gun. I am saying you would have to be nuts to shoot it from a pants pocket. Or rather to plan to.

 

[mark056]

Again no one is saying don't pocket carry a gun. I am saying you would have to be nuts to shoot it from a pants pocket. Or rather to plan to.

Then I guess I'm nuts. Been there, done that in training, but what do I know...right? You have the experience to back up your suppositon?

What happens? Nothing much except you ruin a perfectly good pair of pants.

Don't try this at home on your on your own, but do it as part of an organized training course by a competent instructor.

When would you use this technique? At extremely close range when drawing is not possible or practical. It's legit, do some research.
This topic is well addressed on the Internet. Because it makes no sense to you, places you most definite in a very small minority.

 

[kalash]

Do you pocket carry without a holster then? Otherwise how would you clear the holster without just drawing from the pocket completely?

 

[mark056]

Do you pocket carry without a holster then? Otherwise how would you clear the holster without just drawing from the pocket completely?

No, if you have a soft pocket holster (an Uncle Mikes like I do) you can reach around the trigger or at least I can. This may or may not be a problem depending I suppose on the model of gun, the brand of holster and perhaps even your hand size.

Pocket carry without a holster is somewhat controversial. I wouldn't worry too much about an AD with a so called hammerless snub with a 10 lb trigger pull (most seem to fall in the 10-12 lb range) but the issue becomes more of positioning of the gun itself plus the inevitable detritus that the gun will accumulate. A revolver is more forgiving in that respect, but it still is an issue. I think the issue here mainly is presentation and getting a consistent purchase when executing a draw. There are purists who say never pocket carry without a pocket holster but personally I wouldn't go that far, but I don't favor it.

 

[BigAl23]

From all the reading I've done for a true pocket gun, you are on the mark about the 238. I fired it once and it was light on recoil, easy to shoot and control. I did have a 938 which I sold because it was too small for my hand and I found myself needing to adjust my grip every shot because of the snappiness. These two guns are perfect for pocket carry. A couple of things about the 938. The recoil spring has been changed to a flat coil which according to Sig should last a few thousand rounds. I was using ZQI 123gr ammo and I had 4 FTF's. I put those rounds in my 226 and fired them off no problem. I was told, hard primers. Also being 1911 style guns, they do not recommend carrying cocked and locked in pocket.
As for the Kahr's in 380, they've gotten great reviews but are not on the Ma compliant list.