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Why people do not take formal training
- Thread starter JimConway
- Start date
Couple of comments:
- Shopping for QUALITY holsters: Ain't gonna happen at any gun shop in these parts. Good holsters cost serious money and won't move in a gun shop. People buy $800 guns and won't spend more than $30-40 for a holster. The way to buy good holsters is doing some research online, checking out the equipment people use in those classes you haven't taken yetand mostly you'll need to order over the Internet.
Great advice. Also- Milt Sparks and High Noon have 3-4 months waits now... ask me how I know. High scores for Milt Sparks. Mitch Rosen makes some good quality locally too- NH. I'm particularly fond of IWBs myself. Fit depends on many variables as well.
EDIT: Comp-Tac makes GREAT kydex paddle/OWB holsters. I use these almost exclusively for IDPA, etc. Shipping is darn quick and prices are reasonable.
Try Rusty Sherrick. He might have a shorter wait. I've purchased several good holsters from him. http://www.c-rusty.com
JimConway
Instructor
MP's on staff
MP?? I am not very good on fancy military terms. Is that something like KP?
All kidding aside, I admit that in a moment of weakness, I did knowingly allow the 2 MP's to join NEShooters. I must point out that both of them did require substantial retraining. The training was not easy for them, especially when we had to take their batons away from them.
With all of that said, NEShooters are very lucky to have Scott and Mike with us.
MP?? I am not very good on fancy military terms. Is that something like KP?
All kidding aside, I admit that in a moment of weakness, I did knowingly allow the 2 MP's to join NEShooters. I must point out that both of them did require substantial retraining. The training was not easy for them, especially when we had to take their batons away from them.
With all of that said, NEShooters are very lucky to have Scott and Mike with us.
JimConway
Instructor
Training
Depicts
From the words in your posting, it would appear that your thought process is well along and not far off the mark. I would stress that your mental awareness is the most important and will keep you out of most bad situations.
I believe that Mas Ayood has done a lot of good for the shooting community. With that said, I feel that his high emphasis on the aftermath of a shooting could be so hindering that some folks will be afraid to shoot or will not shoot.
There is an old adage that it is better to to judged by 12 than carried by 6.
If you do not have the skills to survive the fight, you will not have to worry about the aftermath.
On you choice of weapons, the important thing to remember is the any gun will do if you will do.
Depicts
From the words in your posting, it would appear that your thought process is well along and not far off the mark. I would stress that your mental awareness is the most important and will keep you out of most bad situations.
I believe that Mas Ayood has done a lot of good for the shooting community. With that said, I feel that his high emphasis on the aftermath of a shooting could be so hindering that some folks will be afraid to shoot or will not shoot.
There is an old adage that it is better to to judged by 12 than carried by 6.
If you do not have the skills to survive the fight, you will not have to worry about the aftermath.
On you choice of weapons, the important thing to remember is the any gun will do if you will do.
Maybe this is a reason for people balking at these classes (or maybe not). They want to train with what they have, yet are being preached to before even signing up. Just a guess here, and there could be good justification for both sides. Hope that helps answer your question.
JimConway
Instructor
Equipment list for training classes
All of the equipment needed for a class has a practical or safety purpose. For example any holster will do as long as the trigger is covered and you can reholster with one hand. Both of these two criteria are for safety reasons. I would prefer for the students to have their holsters on their strong side hip to avoid covering another student when drawing the gun. A cross draw holster could be used as long as the student was on the end of the line. I have often loaned pieces of equipment to students and will do so again.
If there is ever a question on equipment, simply call or email me and we will try to work it out.
All of the equipment needed for a class has a practical or safety purpose. For example any holster will do as long as the trigger is covered and you can reholster with one hand. Both of these two criteria are for safety reasons. I would prefer for the students to have their holsters on their strong side hip to avoid covering another student when drawing the gun. A cross draw holster could be used as long as the student was on the end of the line. I have often loaned pieces of equipment to students and will do so again.
If there is ever a question on equipment, simply call or email me and we will try to work it out.
If someone is close-minded enough that a list of equipment turns them off, then perhaps they shouldn't bother going to training. For training to work, you have to be willing to try new things.
Amen! Very well stated!
Holsters:
- As someone who bought the $12 specials at the gun shows for years and CCW'd with them, full leather IWB with clip that totally collapsed when you drew your gun, sometimes pulled off the belt (gun & holster . . . not funny it happened in that infamous FBI shootout in Miami where agents were killed), etc. Taking my first class where you are in/out of the holster hundreds of times/class taught me that there is serious value in investing in a proper holster (if IWB especially) that won't collapse on you. For OWB, I survived very nicely with a Fobus paddle.
- www.gunnersalley.com has a great selection of holsters/belts for reasonable prices and you'll get delivery within a handful of days. Comp-Tac, Don Hume, G-Code and Mitch Rosen are all available from them.
- Brownells has some Milt Sparks Summer Special 2 IWB holsters for Glocks, 1911s in stock. Prices were ~$76 or $65 with C&R FFL (or LEO) and again you'd have it in a handful of days.
Equipment:
- Needs are rather basic, but you're likely to forget some stuff if not reminded in a list.
- If you come with 2 mags/speed-loaders, you are going to slow the entire class down to a crawl. Most of us bring 5-10 mags so we can load whenever the instructor is talking and thus not waste time.
- Other things we might not think of: bug spray, sun screen, mat/tarp, elbow and knee pads (Building 19, local hardware store works cheaply), lots of ammo (when advertised as 600-700 rds, I'll bring 1K), a backup gun/mags/ammo is also useful if something breaks (yup, it's happened to a number of folks in the 4 classes I took). Jim is real good at loaning out a spare gun, but one should try to cover themselves. In 2005 I shot my 1911 but brought my P99 as a backup (with .40S&W ammo and 5 mags).
- Lots of water, although Jim has this covered in his classes, I would not be so sure of classes given by others.
- As someone who bought the $12 specials at the gun shows for years and CCW'd with them, full leather IWB with clip that totally collapsed when you drew your gun, sometimes pulled off the belt (gun & holster . . . not funny it happened in that infamous FBI shootout in Miami where agents were killed), etc. Taking my first class where you are in/out of the holster hundreds of times/class taught me that there is serious value in investing in a proper holster (if IWB especially) that won't collapse on you. For OWB, I survived very nicely with a Fobus paddle.
- www.gunnersalley.com has a great selection of holsters/belts for reasonable prices and you'll get delivery within a handful of days. Comp-Tac, Don Hume, G-Code and Mitch Rosen are all available from them.
- Brownells has some Milt Sparks Summer Special 2 IWB holsters for Glocks, 1911s in stock. Prices were ~$76 or $65 with C&R FFL (or LEO) and again you'd have it in a handful of days.
Equipment:
- Needs are rather basic, but you're likely to forget some stuff if not reminded in a list.
- If you come with 2 mags/speed-loaders, you are going to slow the entire class down to a crawl. Most of us bring 5-10 mags so we can load whenever the instructor is talking and thus not waste time.
- Other things we might not think of: bug spray, sun screen, mat/tarp, elbow and knee pads (Building 19, local hardware store works cheaply), lots of ammo (when advertised as 600-700 rds, I'll bring 1K), a backup gun/mags/ammo is also useful if something breaks (yup, it's happened to a number of folks in the 4 classes I took). Jim is real good at loaning out a spare gun, but one should try to cover themselves. In 2005 I shot my 1911 but brought my P99 as a backup (with .40S&W ammo and 5 mags).
- Lots of water, although Jim has this covered in his classes, I would not be so sure of classes given by others.
Oh for goodness sakes, what is the big deal about an equipment list?
What is such a big deal about an equipment list? Please explain this to me, because I just do not understand why this would be a problem.
Are you, perhaps, mistaking the list that an instructor gives out with the suggestions of people here who have taken classes?
For example, a class like Sigarms Concealed Carry teaches drawing from concealment. So their list will specify that you need to bring a concealment garment. When I took it, they told you to bring two types of concealment garments -- one that opens in the front (e.g., vest or jacket), and a second that is a pullover. That way they can teach you how to draw and reholster with both types of garment. If they didn't have an equipment list, would you know to bring those garments? If you didn't bring those garments, how would they be able to practice those draws? Should Sigarms Academy just assume that you will magically know enough to bring those items? Or should they instead give you a list of things to bring?
Consider me to be a dunce. Why is it "preaching" for an instructor to give an equipment list that probably includes something like:
1. quality belt
2. handgun
3. strong-side holster
4. two magazine carriers/speedloader holders
5. three or more magazines or speedloaders
6. hat with a bill
7. eye protection
8. ear protection
9. clothing appropriate for the weather
10. x rounds of ammunition
What is "preaching" about this?
Let's go through this list in detail:
1. quality belt - If your belt isn't stiff enough, it will be difficult to draw from your holster. You may also find that it is more comfortable to carry a gun using a strong gun belt than a floppy dress belt.
2. handgun - Unless you are going to a manufacturer's class, you'll need to supply your own gun. Don't you agree that most people who would be taking a defensive handgun class already own a handgun?
3. strong-side holster - Most classes are run on a square range. that is, multiple students will be on the line at the same time. If someone is using a shoulder-holster or cross-draw, chances are their muzzle will cross other people on the range. That's a safety issue. The instructors are not saying that shoulder-holsters or cross-draw are bad or are unsuited to concealed carry. They are saying that they cause a safety problem on their range. In fact, at LFI-1 and Sigarms Concealed Carry, they displayed different types of holsters (including cross-draw and shoulder) and discussed their advantages and disadvantages. Many of the lessons that you learn with the strong-side holster will also apply to shoulder-holsters or cross-draw.
Defensive handgun classes will start from a holster and return to the holster. They don't want you wandering around off the line with your gun in your hand for obvious safety purposes. In addition, part of the point of the class is to teach you how to safely draw and holster a gun. To do that, you obviously need a holster.
4. two magazine carriers or speedloader holders. Part of what you'll be practicing is reloading. You need to be able to carry the magazines/speedloaders on your person. For pedagogical purposes, they want you to have two reloads so that they can move the class along. They aren't necessarily saying that you must carry two (and only two) reloads. To move the class along, they want you to have the reloads on your belt -- it's a lot slower to draw your reload from a pocket. If you do choose to carry that way, the lessons you learned while reloading from a belt carrier directly apply.
5. three or more magazines or speedloaders. You've got to have something to put in those magazine carriers and in your gun.
6. hat with a bill. Not all courses require this. Some do, some don't. Those that do require do so for safety reasons. There is a chance, albeit slim, that a spent cartridge case ejected from another student's gun will land between your glasses and your eye (there is usually a gap between your forehead and your glasses). A hat with a bill prevents this from happening.
7. eye protection. This is another safety issue.
8. ear protection. This is another safety issue.
9. clothing appropriate for the weather. If you are too hot, too cold, or soaking wet, you probably won't learn as well.
10. x rounds of ammunition. You need something to feed your gun.
Now, again, I must be stupid, so please explain to me why a school issuing a list like that above (minus my commentary) would be "preaching" and would turn someone off.
I've taken classes at a number of schools. I'm not an instructor at any of these schools. In a previous post, I also listed some items that I find nice-to-have. But the basics are shown above.
Previously, I made the statement that most shooters probably already have most of these items. Let's go through the list again and see if that is true:
1. quality belt. You might not have that. But they don't have to be expensive. A Wilderness belts costs what, $45?
2. handgun. If you are taking a defensive handgun class, then you probably already have a handgun, right?
3. strong-side holster. If you are taking a defensive handgun class, then you probably already have a holster. If you don't, a cheap kydex holster will work, and the cost ranges from $15 to $70.
4. two magazine carriers or speedloader holders. If you don't have them, you can get a couple cheap kydex carriers for $30 or so.
5. three or more magazines or speedloaders. If you have a defensive semi-auto handgun, then you've already got two magazines. A third magazine is good to have, and will typically cost from $15 to $40. Speedloaders are even cheaper.
6. hat with a bill. Do you know any gun owner who doesn't have a baseball cap? If not, that's $10.
7. eye protection. If you own a gun and have ever shot it at a range, then you already own eye protection.
8. ear protection. If you own a gun and have ever shot it at a range, then you already own ear protection.
9. clothing appropriate for the weather. You already own this.
10. ammunition. It's a shooting course, so you'll be shooting. Therefore, you need projectiles.
So, upon review, I stand by my assertion that you probably already have most everything on the equipment list. So if you already have almost all the stuff, how is the list itself preaching?
Am I preaching here? No, I think I've gone well beyond preaching into a full-on rant...
I'm not an instructor at one of these schools (I am an NRA certified instructor). I'm not and never have been an employee at one of these schools. I have taken courses at some of these schools, and I think my skills have improved as a result.
Finally, about keeping an open mind. The purpose of going to a course is to learn something new. New ideas, new techniques. Some of those techniques won't work for you. Some will. Some of those ideas you may feel are stupid. Keep an open mind. Try them. If they work for you, then keep them in your bag of tricks. If not, discard them. I've never been to a class where I didn't learn something new. I've never been to a class where I agreed with everything an instructor said or every technique the instructor taught. Keep what works, discard the rest (which, btw, is exactly the advice that two of my instructors, Massad Ayoob and John Peterson, gave to their classes).
To get back to the bottom line, if a person does not have an open mind and does not want to learn new things, then why would that person take a course? If they are not open to learning new things, then why spend their time and money on a course?
Personally, I figure that I have a lot to learn. In addition, I think recurrent training is a good way to find and cure any bad habits that may have crept in since my last training.
I guess there are people who are so good that they already know everything they could possibly know about shooting. But unless you're as good as David Sevigny or Jerry Miculek, etc., I'd suggest that you just might learn something at a course.
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JimConway
Instructor
Training Gear
M1911
Thank you for posting you discussion about the gear needed for training. I tried to respond several times, but was not happy with the result and did not send the posts. I agree with what you said. Remember that there is little of the gear required by Neshooters and any of the other trainers that is not for everyday use.
M1911
Thank you for posting you discussion about the gear needed for training. I tried to respond several times, but was not happy with the result and did not send the posts. I agree with what you said. Remember that there is little of the gear required by Neshooters and any of the other trainers that is not for everyday use.
+1 You hit the nail on the head, M1911.
It's amazing all of the reasons why not to TRAIN. I would expect a more positive attitude and response from those of us that donot want to be the Sheep of the world. Training should be a daily, weekly and on going cycle as far as I am concerned.
I would really like people to think of the so called expendable money that is used everyday.
I see people spending $$ dolars on scratch tickets, $1.50 $3.00 dollar cups coffee at Starbucks and DDs, $ 5.00 dollar packs of cigarettes, Fast food, donot buy that bag of chips with your sub, that can of soda when you can drink water at the office for free etc. catch my drift. I bet if you through all that lose money in a draw you could take a class or two a year. Put that money to real use.
Daily Dry practice is worth its weight in GOLD (FREE), 50-100+ reps of drawing from the holster is (Free), 50 rounds of good hits weekly at the range $10 - $12.00 dollars.
Choose a class with an instructor that you can afford in a location that you can get too and enjoy every minute of it that you can.
I would really like people to think of the so called expendable money that is used everyday.
I see people spending $$ dolars on scratch tickets, $1.50 $3.00 dollar cups coffee at Starbucks and DDs, $ 5.00 dollar packs of cigarettes, Fast food, donot buy that bag of chips with your sub, that can of soda when you can drink water at the office for free etc. catch my drift. I bet if you through all that lose money in a draw you could take a class or two a year. Put that money to real use.
Daily Dry practice is worth its weight in GOLD (FREE), 50-100+ reps of drawing from the holster is (Free), 50 rounds of good hits weekly at the range $10 - $12.00 dollars.
Choose a class with an instructor that you can afford in a location that you can get too and enjoy every minute of it that you can.
JimConway
Instructor
Teachers
Mp1911 listed just the trainers that we are training with in January, 2007.
I am sure that the following list will miss someone that I have trained with, but here goes
Front Sight (many courses)
Gunsite (the last course that Jeff Cooper taught)
Jim Crews (2 courses)
Randy Cain
Gabe Suarez (5 courses)
Jeff Gonzales
Tom Givens
I hope that this answers your question
Mp1911 listed just the trainers that we are training with in January, 2007.
I am sure that the following list will miss someone that I have trained with, but here goes
Front Sight (many courses)
Gunsite (the last course that Jeff Cooper taught)
Jim Crews (2 courses)
Randy Cain
Gabe Suarez (5 courses)
Jeff Gonzales
Tom Givens
I hope that this answers your question
F
Finalygotabeltfed
Most people don't/won't even go to a local range, even on an infrequent basis, let alone travel distant and pay for a course.
I've spent many an eight hour day on ranges in good and bad weather, weekdays and weekends and the majority of the time been alone or with one or two other shooters who popped off one box of ammo or less, didn't hit shit, packed up and left. Some people I see at ranges have forgotten how to even operate the guns they bring. I always get a kick out of people who bring a 1" or 2" snubnose revolver and shoot it at 25yds, then wonder why there's no holes in their target. They are a "same room gun"....twelve to twentyfive feet....in the hands of an experienced shooter....they are not a combat pistol by any stretch.
I don't enter competitions, but I do practice regularly with pistols, subguns and rifles and probably burn more ammo in two range trips than most burn in two years.....and I have the buckets of brass to prove it. I bring my ammo by the can, not by the box and my vehicle always rides a little higher on the way home.
I admit that I do need more practice drawing and that is going to be my concentration along with my weak hand shooting which has been hampered by an injury as of late.
With the prices of ammo lately, I expect to see even fewer people on the ranges, even with the good weather coming.
I've spent many an eight hour day on ranges in good and bad weather, weekdays and weekends and the majority of the time been alone or with one or two other shooters who popped off one box of ammo or less, didn't hit shit, packed up and left. Some people I see at ranges have forgotten how to even operate the guns they bring. I always get a kick out of people who bring a 1" or 2" snubnose revolver and shoot it at 25yds, then wonder why there's no holes in their target. They are a "same room gun"....twelve to twentyfive feet....in the hands of an experienced shooter....they are not a combat pistol by any stretch.
I don't enter competitions, but I do practice regularly with pistols, subguns and rifles and probably burn more ammo in two range trips than most burn in two years.....and I have the buckets of brass to prove it. I bring my ammo by the can, not by the box and my vehicle always rides a little higher on the way home.
I admit that I do need more practice drawing and that is going to be my concentration along with my weak hand shooting which has been hampered by an injury as of late.
With the prices of ammo lately, I expect to see even fewer people on the ranges, even with the good weather coming.
