Why people do not take formal training

[JimConway]

I am sure that a lot of people on this list meet the following criteria:

You are into guns for self defense.
You carry a gun some or all of the time.
You have not had any formal training or only the training required to get your carry permit.
You have no intention to take any formal training in the near future.

In the course of planning and running our firearm training courses, we have heard a lot of different reasons why people do not want or get any formal firearms training. The ones that we hear most often are the following:

I can teach myself to shoot.
I do not need to know about that "high speed - low drag" ninja stuff and tactics would have no value to me
It is a "guy" thing
I took a class once and hated it.
A guy at the gun store told me that taking a class would get me into legal trouble.
What is in it for me? I already use a gun safely
I would be embarrassed to train with police and military types.

I think that it would be a good thing if we discussed these responses. Does anyone have any thoughts or is there any reasons for not training that I missed?

 

[Lugnut]

Sorry to if I'm taking this in the wrong direction. But I try to get AS MUCH AS I CAN! I find the more I shoot the more I need.

I suspect a big reason that some may not is because they don't want or need to get any better. Not knowing people that will be in the class can be a bummer too I guess.

 

[cdkayak]

Personally I try to take at least one class a year. I've been taking courses with a local outfit. I've been happy with their instruction but when more funds are available I'd like to take some more extensive courses.

CD

I do know several individuals who have guns in the home for defense that have never taken a defensive course though. I have tried to convey the importance to them.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Travel - costs and hotels?
Cost of courses?
Cost of ammo for courses?
Most CCW folks probably don't have leather/Kydex suitable for a course (or even CCW for that matter ), so an additional cost and shopping venture. [The good stuff isn't even available at retail shops to try on.]
Time away from work/home to take a course.

 

[JimConway]

Formal training

Lugnut
First you are very fast. It took you less than 2 minutes to respond to my thread. I am with you on wanting as much training as I can get.
I recognize that not knowing the people in the class can be a down. On the up side of this, I can not even count the number of great people that I have meet and still talk to for the classes that I have taken. The best part of a class is that the people that attend are all our kind of people.

 

[daceman63]

I've not heard the one about getting into legal trouble.....what's the deal with that?

 

[Big Daddy 45acp]

Complacency.
Too many people buy the gun and ammo and think that it all they need! They believe what they see and read. Just the sight of a gun will stop a BG in their tracks.
Many folks are secretly too embarrassed by their ability (or lack thereof) to shoot. They don't want to further embarass themselves in front of their peers or their Instructors.
Also, many people cannot differentiate between the many different classes. They simply don't know what type of training they need. They can't tell a "shooting" course from a "self-defense" course.


P.S. Jim, I am still in FL and heading to WV tomorrow. I will be back behind the Iron Curtain next Tuesday!

 

[cdkayak]

Travel - costs and hotels?
Cost of courses?
Cost of ammo for courses?

Len has hit on several of the reasons I haven't taken more extensive training.

When I did have cash available, another reason was many courses have been held in MA. This limits what equipment I can bring. As well as the comfort level of traveling to MA with my firearms.

Luckily we do have a couple of excellent instructors in Southern Maine that I've been able to work with.

CD

 

[Neptune Cat]

Travel - costs and hotels?
Cost of courses?
Cost of ammo for courses?
Most CCW folks probably don't have leather/Kydex suitable for a course (or even CCW for that matter ), so an additional cost and shopping venture. [The good stuff isn't even available at retail shops to try on.]
Time away from work/home to take a course.

I live an hour west of S&W acadamy. I work 50 mins west of that in NY state (I need to stop at the house to pick up guns, I can't go straight to Acadamy). I work Sat and Sun mornings until 1:00-3:00 for my family buisness. and I can't afford private instruction.

I know that sounds like alot of excuses but I am working on private instruction and/or vacation time to go to classes.

Of course the wife has plans for most of my vacation time.

 

[JWalker]

This is an important topic. I carry for self protection (business) and I've taken two courses in the past year to help improve my awareness and abilities in handgun use and safety. I also train in martial arts (self defense) with a private instructor on a weekly basis. All of this costs money and it wasn't until recently that I was able to dedicate funds for this purpose.
My confidence level has increased and I feel alot better equipped to handle a crisis situation than I did before the additional training. It's worth the time and money if you can swing it.

 

[Dirtypacman]

Bottom line for me is cost/travel/availability times.

If it was not for one of those 3 issues I would be more interested.

 

[JimConway]

Training

Cost/travel/availability of time

Cost
The courses by outside instructors cost about $400.00 to $500.00 for 3 days
The Suarez International courses that we reach are either 1 or 2 days and cost only $125.00 per day plus any range fee (typically $15.00 or $20.00 a day).
This year most of our courses will be held at either Pelham F&G or the Westford Sportsmen's Club.

Tracel cost and time are mot a factor for most people. For Non Mass residents we make special arrangements to ensure that no Mass gun laws are violated. For those that are interested, please PM me.

Our courses and those by the outside instructors will start in late April or early May and run through October. There will be a lot to choose from.

Lens mentioned the need for a Kydex holster. We are completely happy with any strong side holster the covers the trigger and allows the user to reholster with one hand. Therefore leather or Kydex are good and nylon is a poor choise.

 

[Jay G]

I would hazard a guess that some folks are reluctant to seek training because they fear that an overzealous DA might use the training against them should they ever be prosecuted for a self-defense shooting.

Basically, Citizen X takes a defensive gun class.

One day in the future, X shoots Goblin G in self defense.

Prosecutor P might use X's "training" as evidence of pre-meditation - "But your honor, why would anyone not in law enforcement take this class unless they planned to kill someone?"

Far-fetched and easily demolished with competent council, of course.

That's my take.

I've not heard the one about getting into legal trouble.....what's the deal with that?

 

[C-pher]

I think that my issue is/was time and money. With small kids, and a work schedule that sucks...taking time away is hard. More so when it's a whole day..and I only get one or two with my family a week...sometimes a month.

I would like to take one, but like Len, I don't have a lot of the equipment needed for a class. Or maybe I don and don't even know. If not, I don't really have the money to spend on things I can't try. I have a several holsters that suck...or suck because I don't have a good belt, or because I'm too fat...who knows.

But, because of that, I also don't carry. I feel that there's a great responsibility in CCW. And I don't think that the class to get your permit is really sufficient. I do want to a few classes...but I just need to find the time....and extra money.

I think that some might be embarrassment of shooting around people that have had extensive training. Not really the teachers, but other pupils. But I know that that's not true as I've never been to a shooting event where someone was rude, but rather would offer advice if you asked.

I also think that a lot of it for me is I grew up with them. We never though of guns as a self defence tool. I mean, I it's been said in my family that they would be used if someone came into the house.

But for the most part, it was used by some as a tool for hunting. But mostly it was used as a family past time. They were things to talk about around the dinner table. Much like cars or sports to some. Something new an uncle picked up...how one of the kids shot well. At my Grandfathers, we would go in the back yard and set up sticks and put cans on them. Kids would plink with .22s. Grown ups were shooting clays. That was what we did. So I grew up a more casual shooter. Something to do on a Sunday afternoon.

 

[drgrant]

I'm going to take another "real" course, but it will be more CQC oriented
as opposed to strictly gun/marksmanship oriented.

Why? With enough practice -anyone- can draw and shoot a gun at
bad breath distances, and hit the target where it matters.

The problem is, at such distances, is that not all encounters are going to
be "square". They're going to be dynamic. You're going to get ambushed,
or you might have to deal with a guy that has a knife, that has to be taken
care of. You might end up in any of 100 situations that wouldn't allow
you to get to the gun and fire in time. The upsides of having CQC
skills is it gives you an "out" or a way of dealing with unexpected
contingencies.

CQC skills are also hard to develop by yourself. You really need an
instructor or at least another person that knows what the heck theyre
doing, to get an idea of the mechanics involved.

The other advantage of close quarters combat, is that those skills even
are applicable when you're unarmed.

I'm not saying people have to train to be Bruce Lee, either... it seems to me
like there is a basic set of skills, that if tought well, and reinforced
well, can go a long way towards adding to your self defense.

-Mike

 

[daceman63]

I would hazard a guess that some folks are reluctant to seek training because they fear that an overzealous DA might use the training against them should they ever be prosecuted for a self-defense shooting.

Basically, Citizen X takes a defensive gun class.

One day in the future, X shoots Goblin G in self defense.

Prosecutor P might use X's "training" as evidence of pre-meditation - "But your honor, why would anyone not in law enforcement take this class unless they planned to kill someone?"

Far-fetched and easily demolished with competent council, of course.

That's my take.

Thanks for the explanation.....you said it's far-fetched and a short time ago I would have believed it to be a rare instance that would happen as you described but I've lost a lot of faith in the people of Mass. and what is right and what is wrong.

Someone breaks into your house and gets hurt and the homeowner is sued. Something is wrong with that.

People generally don't train to perform a pre-meditated act of violence but in Mass I bet that's exactly how it would be described.

 

[JimConway]

Training

I emails with the attorney, Lisa Steele, she pointed out that someone that trains and has had training is trying to be better and safer. Her comment was also that she would rather defend a person that has gone to the trouble and expense to get quality trainingand has learned to do things properly

 

[matt]

I have taken just one class past the basic pistol. It was the one day "intro to defensive pistol" that Jim offers.

I'd love to take more, but there obsticles to this. In order of impact on this decision:

1) Time away from family. Absolutely at the top of the list and far above the others. Getting 3 days for an intensive course is next to impossible. If I could take (3) 1/2 days over a month, that might work better for my situation.

2) Relevance: I'm not permitted to carry (crippled LTC) so there is not an immediate "need", though I do keep a pistol for home defense.

3) Cost - It is an expensive habit! $3-500 for an intensive course is alot, especially if I'm not CCW.

Regarding legal reasons: sounds contrived to me. The liscensing officer in my town said "lack of training" was one reason he didn't want to give me ALP and suggested I take more training.

Regarding "other people in the class" being an obsticle, I had a good time with the folks in my classes. Some shot well, some didn't, we all (I think) had fun and learned something.

Matt

 

[TY43215]

Part of the problem today with taking a course, other than what has been stated, is you never know what you are getting for your money.

The trend today in training is take a few courses, read what others have written, maybe write a book about it, and then proclaim yourself an expert. Well, I call BS on that. There are too many unqualified people trying to teach others just to make a buck.

Last course I took was a total waste of my time and my money. I do not have the cash to invest in people that learned by reading a book or reading on the Internet. (Jim, I have no idea who you are and this is not aimed at you)

There have been and are many excellent teachers. There are also many who have great skill but can not teach worth a damn. The only way to separate the wheat from the chaff is to spend the money.

I have attended quite a bit of training over the years that was excellent. I have also seen some that was really poor. I am not willing to take a chance anymore on throwing away $400 on a course I could have taught better than the person I paid.

I know the Suarez approach to be excellent and I am not disparaging it in any way. I just need to know I will get my dollars worth with any training I take.

What I would like to see is several one day courses offered by qualified instructors at a fair price. If it happens and I have the time to go, I may get more training.

Regards,

 

[Big Daddy 45acp]

I would hazard a guess that some folks are reluctant to seek training because they fear that an overzealous DA might use the training against them should they ever be prosecuted for a self-defense shooting.

Basically, Citizen X takes a defensive gun class.

One day in the future, X shoots Goblin G in self defense.

Prosecutor P might use X's "training" as evidence of pre-meditation - "But your honor, why would anyone not in law enforcement take this class unless they planned to kill someone?"

Far-fetched and easily demolished with competent council, of course.

That's my take.

Valid point. However, there is one glaring difference between a "shooting" class and a "self-defense" class.
A "self-defense" class should include "avoidance" tactics". If you learn these and practice them, it will help negate the need to use a firearm for self defense.
If you still have to shoot AFTER doing everything in your power to avoid the initial confrontation, then you have more demonstrable facts to use in your defense.
To quote Gabe Suarez, "You can get out of jail, you can get a new house, you can get more money but you can't get a new life!"

 

[JimConway]

Training

"Part of the problem today with taking a course, other than what has been stated, is you never know what you are getting for your money."

I agree that you can never know what you are going to get until you go. I also agree that you could have a bad instructor. The most important thing with any course is to go in with an open mind, be willing to try, and willing to learn. I have had students that wanted to be taught exactly what the latest gun Mag had writen about. The problem was that the technique was flawed anf could not work for that student. He commented that I was not teaching up to date material, while the technique he wanted to learn was at least 30 years old and out of date.

I have a question for you and everyone else. Have you ever gone to a restaurant and had a bad meal or poor service? I assume that you still eat in restaurants. Am I right?

The one thing that I can assure you of is that the instructors that we bring in are the best in the world. We will accept no less that the very best. Several of the Neshooter staff are also Staff Instructors for Suarez International. I am not at liberty to discuss the accreditation process with gabe Suarez, except to say that it was not easy.

If you or anyone else honestly believes that we have not delivered a quality training program, please tell me what your problems were. We will work out an equitable solution.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

I am not at liberty to discuss the accreditation process with gabe Suarez, except to say that it was not easy.

Just curious - why is this a secret? Most professionals (MDs, plumbers, accountants, etc.) will be glad to tell you what they had to go through to get accredited.

It would be interesting to learn what specific forms of expertise are required. There are numerous relevant points when considering an instructor's qualifications (in no particular order) to teach a firearms self defense course:

1. Ability to teach

2. Ability to demonstrate gun handling skills beyond that of the normal "good shooter" and how this is determined - is it "yeah, they meet the standard which is very tough but I can't talk about it" or "all the police at the SWAT match were asking about that civilian who came in and topped the scoresheet" I know one big name instructor who did this at a SWAT rifle match.

3. Understanding of law, court process, interrogation techniques, etc. and the ability to impart this to the student.

4. Third party certifications

5. Documented acceptance by courts as an expert wittness in firearms or use of force cases.

6. "Seen the elephant" - the stuff that doesn't really make one a good teacher, but impresses students - serving as an LEO, being able to make subtle allusions to one's many gunfights or draw-downs that avoided a gunfight, ability to act grizzled and tough, etc.


-----------------

None of this is intended to slight Gabe Suarez and his crew. When I hear comments like "we'll work out an equitable solution if you're not happy" from someone who keeps his name out there in public, that's pretty much says it all. It's like restaurants - I have had many bad meals, and I have been asked "was everything all right" many times, but I have never been asked "was everything all right" at a restaurant which served me a bad meal.

 

[firtree]

Everyone is giving their opinion so I'll chime in. Let me preface this by saying
that I really want to take some classes. My "intro" class in FL was
pretty fast paced with a lot of shooting but I know that is nowhere near
enough. I carry regularly and practice at least bi-weekly, running drills
with as much movement as possible in my restricted range.

#1: Time. With a little kid at home and a wife that works on sundays I
just cannot take several days off for a class. I could do 1 day, maybe
2, but if I have to add travel time to that I have no chance to take that
course. If someone ran a course in MA and split it up over a period of time,
perhaps 1 day per month for 6 months, I could swing that and would love
to go.

#2: Money. This is a far second place, but it does matter. If a course
is not offered locally adding in the travel costs kills it. I have a food allergy,
so eating out is impossible unless I am in or near a large city.

#3: Gear. I shoot my carry guns (p99 and p245) and wear my IWB carry holsters
when I practice. It seems like most of the classes are geared towards
hi-cap Glocks (based on the after action reports I've read) and OWB
holsters.

I am saving up now for a course next year. Oh yeah, I know the summer is a
good time to be outside, but it is a *terrible* time to be away from home
for a whole weekend. The weather is good for the kids and house work. I
would not be as missed on a winter weekend when there is nothing else to
do anyway.

F

 

[Len-2A Training]

Time for a few comments, based on my experiences.

I've had a LTC-A/ALP (or earlier equivalent) for 30 years, served as a Reserve PO (with semi-annual qualification) for 18 years, have been CCW'g for all 30 years (mostly when/where I felt the need) and never took a course other than NRA's Home Firearms Responsibility (with my Wife probably 25 years ago) . . . until 2004.

Somehow I connected with Jim Conway and took the Jim Crews Defensive Tactics course with a lot of trepidation.

- Equipment: Cheap Fobus OWB holster, regular crappy belt, H&K USPc 40 with 4 - 10 rd mags and Fobus mag carriers. That's it!

- What were most using for gear? Majority of shooters were wearing a Wilderness Instructors Belt (<$40), various holsters, and almost everyone was shooting 1911s (not your hi-cap gun by any means). I tried Jim Conway's 1911 and got suckered into buying a S&W 1911 shortly thereafter (NO regrets).

- I did some research on Jim Crews, checked other forums (Combatcarry.com is a good source of info), etc. and learned a tremendous amount.

- I convinced my Wife to take a vacation day and we stayed at a hotel in Nashua for the 3 days. She had the car for 2 of those days and went shopping, sat by the pool, etc. until we were back from the day's class. So it became a mini-vacation of sorts for the Family. Think about doing this if your concern is being away from home/Family!

Subsequently (2005) I took two courses with Gabe Suarez and one with Randy Cain. I researched the reputations of each prior to making that decision. Learned a lot more in each one! Again, almost everyone was shooting lo-cap 1911s!

To cut the total cost so that I could afford to take all 3 courses in 2005, I commuted instead of the hotel and restaurant routine.

I had been taught to shoot by bullseye shooters and found that NONE of what I was taught (except basic safety) was useful in Defensive Tactics!!

For the 2005 classes, I shot my 1911, had accumulated 10 mags for it, used a Wilderness Instructors Belt, used a few quality holsters and mag carriers plus bought some cargo pants (extra pockets are great for loose ammo and mags). Nothing real sophisticated and expensive here wrt gear.

 

[TY43215]

"Part of the problem today with taking a course, other than what has been stated, is you never know what you are getting for your money."

I agree that you can never know what you are going to get until you go. I also agree that you could have a bad instructor. The most important thing with any course is to go in with an open mind, be willing to try, and willing to learn. I have had students that wanted to be taught exactly what the latest gun Mag had writen about. The problem was that the technique was flawed anf could not work for that student. He commented that I was not teaching up to date material, while the technique he wanted to learn was at least 30 years old and out of date.

I have a question for you and everyone else. Have you ever gone to a restaurant and had a bad meal or poor service? I assume that you still eat in restaurants. Am I right?

+1 to what Rob wrote. Also, to compare a $25 to $50 meal that leaves you several hours after partaking is a poor analogy to a $100 to $400 course that should stay with you for life.

Your original question was not "Why do you not take Training from me" it was a general question which I answered in a General way. There are too many people trying to make money training with little or no experience. They are ruining the business and creating more people that feel they know what they are doing and do not.

Many training practices worked for me when I was younger. Now, they do not.

If I go to a course, I want to see before hand, the qualifications of the instructor. Depending on the course, I will decide if I feel the instructor is good for me.

Example: If I want to take a course on advanced revolver skills for competition, there is only one person I would take that from, Jerry Miculek. He is an excellent shooter and an excellent instructor and has the experience to pass along his knowledge and the ability to help you with a problem.

If I wanted to take a course in Low Light shooting techniques, my first choice would be Ernest Langdon. He knows the subject matter, has had the real world experience necessary to teach his techniques, and is an excellent instructor.

Both of these instructors can tell you their qualifications. Both can impart their knowledge to you, and neither claim to be the answer to all questions. They are just good at what they do.

Maybe some day I will take a course with you but maybe not. I am not an old man but I am not a young man trying to become a Ninja either

Regards,

 

[FalArAk]

I'm generally paranoid and look over my shoulder and am well aware of my surroundings at all times.

Nobody will catch me by surprise.So personally I see no point in taking those type of classes.

Books are a lot cheaper anyways.I do want to take a Pat Rogers carbine course though.

 

[M1911]

#3: Gear. I shoot my carry guns (p99 and p245) and wear my IWB carry holsters when I practice. It seems like most of the classes are geared towards hi-cap Glocks (based on the after action reports I've read) and OWB holsters.

I've taken classes at Lethal Force Institute, Sigarms Academy, Cumberland Tactics (Randy Cain) and others. I've usually been shooting a single-stack 1911. I've never once felt that I should have had a double-stack gun at one of these classes.

As for IWB holsters, they're fine for carry but they become a significant impediment at these types of classes. You'll be in and out of your holster hundreds of times a day. With an IWB holster, you'll spend all your time tucking your shirt back in. A Kydex OWB holster is not a big investment -- $30-60 or so.

 

[stoneypete]

I'll only speak for myself. I've not taken a course yet because I was young and dumb, but thought I knew everything. Now I'm married with two kids and realize I have alot to loose should I do something stupid or illegal. It could even get me killed.

Though I don't really have the time or money to take a course, I've come to the conclusion that I can't afford not to get some training. I'm signed up for the Art of Concealed Carry course on November 28th at Mansfield Fish. I will sign up for others as they become available.

 

[firtree]

As for IWB holsters, they're fine for carry but they become a significant impediment at these types of classes. You'll be in and out of your holster hundreds of times a day. With an IWB holster, you'll spend all your time tucking your shirt back in. A Kydex OWB holster is not a big investment -- $30-60 or so.

But doesn't that just reenforce a habit that will not carry over into life
outside of the course? That's my equipment concern, that my real-world
gear is not what the courses are aimed at. I hope that I am wrong.

F

 

[JimConway]

Training

Ron Boudrie
The reason for not discussing the accredation process is simply that Gabe Suarez asked us not to.
I agree with you idea of what makes a good instructor.
When we teach a course, we bring a wide range of experience to the class. For example, one of our instructors is a police officer with a very good understanding of all of the legal aspects of a self defence dituation. All of our instructors are actively involved in maintaining and improving our skills and take 3 or 4 courses a year from instructors that are the best in the world. As an example of the recent training that we undergo, I will use myself as an example.
Front Sight - multiple times a Graduate level shooter
Gunsite - With jeff Cooper
Jim Crews - multiple times
Randy Cain
Gabe Suarez - 5 courses
Jeff Gonzales
Tom Givens
This will sound like bragging, but the string of successes that we have had in our public and private classes have convinced me that we are delivering the goods as promised.

The main reason that we are all involved in teaching is real simple. We love it.

Someone mentioned that they do all of their training from books. I did this for a lot of years and thought that I was real good until I took my first class. That was a humbling experience. Most of what I knew or thought that I knew was either impractical or wrong. I now realize that books are fine for reference, but are not even a close substitute for real formal training.