Why people do not take formal training

[C-pher]

3) Cost - It is an expensive habit! $3-500 for an intensive course is alot, especially if I'm not CCW.

It's not even the 300-500 for the class, but don't forget the cost of the ammo, and additional equipment if you need it.

Len says that all you need is a few mags...but if you don't have them, and you need four or so, that's a chunk of change. Granted once you have them, then you're set. But some might not have them at the time they decide to take the class.

I have faith in Jim. And would like to take a class from him. One from talking to him briefly at a restaurant. But more so from all the people that I've spoke to that have worked with him. Both in a class, out outside.

And using the restaurant analogy. If a lot of people say that it's a good place to eat, I tend to try to get there. If they say that it sucks, I don't make a huge effort to try the place out. And all the chatter about Jim's team has been nothing but top notch. And that's from people off all ages and skills that I've spoke with.

Again, time and other commitments get in my way quite often. Do I think that it's important? Yes. Do I want to do it? Yes. Again, these classes are often during the week. And taking time off work for me is a pain in the ass. Hell, I've said this before, but I'm dumping 112 hours of VACA this year because I didn't have the time to take it. So, when I do get time with my family, I grab it.

I do think that a half day or so here and there would work for me...but again it would have to be close enough that I'm not taking a full day away from my family.

Again, those are my hurdles.

 

[M1911]

But doesn't that just reenforce a habit that will not carry over into life
outside of the course? That's my equipment concern, that my real-world
gear is not what the courses are aimed at. I hope that I am wrong.

firtree:

Part of what they will be teaching you is how to properly (and safely) draw and reholster. To do that, they will do a lot of repetition. If your shirt is getting in the way, it will slow you down (or worse).

Once you have learned how to properly work with your OWB holster, you can easily learn to do the same from your IWB holster after the class -- the steps are all the same, the only difference is that the holster is in a slightly different place.

No one at any of the courses that I've attended was using IPSC-style race gear. The only thing different for some was an OWB holster instead of an IWB holster. That's it.

The OWB holster that I was using is one that I've used to carry concealed on numerous occasions.

If you don't want to take a class, then don't. It's your time and your money. But I truly can't understand your objection.

If you want to bring your IWB holster, then go ahead and use that. You'll spend a lot of time tucking in your shirt and it will be a pain in the neck, but do what you want to do...

 

[drgrant]

I'm generally paranoid and look over my shoulder and am well aware of my surroundings at all times.

So aren't most of us, as well. Being aware, however, does not make one
completely immune from attack. Also, while many criminals don't do much to supress telegraphing their existence, there's always "that guy" that can evade the radar and do serious damage.

I'm not downplaying the value of awareness- As a matter of fact, I think
it's critical, in terms of not getting into altercations to begin with. I just
think that there are many cases, where danger comes and it's almost
totally unexpected, even with individuals who are usually aware. It's
also incredibly difficult to stay "in yellow" all the tiime, and even when you
do, you can still fail to preemptively detect someone.


-Mike

 

[C-pher]

I think that Greg was listing reason. Not His reason...

But I might have read that wrong.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Ron Boudrie
The reason for not discussing the accredation process is simply that Gabe Suarez asked us not to.

It was pretty obvious that is the reason you are not able to give out this info.

If you get a chance, could you pass along a polite request for a public explaination as to why the accreditation process is kept secret from customers? This is a practice not shared by CPAs, MDs, attorney's, scuba instructors or numerous other professionals.

 

[FalArAk]

I think that Greg was listing reason. Not His reason...

But I might have read that wrong.

Both

I have nothing against the people that attend classes to better themselves.

One of my reasons for not going is that I think they are way overpriced.To me those courses are a business preying on people's fears of the unknown giving them a false confidence that they can handle any situation if it arises.

Do I need someone to show me how to take out my HK faster ? Maybe.I just ask any one of the gun nuts I know and they teach me a whole shitload of stuff,for free.

IMO the best info you get are from people that are willing to give it out for free.That's why I love going to the range and talking to fellow gunowners that aren't out to make a buck if you need to learn something.

Besides,I get all the training I need watching "24" a lot and pretending to be Jack Bauer.

 

[Lugnut]

To me those courses are a business preying on people's fears of the unknown giving them a false confidence that they can handle any situation if it arises.

Wow. I've never thought something like this. Sorry I call BS on this. Some classes maybe... but NONE I've ever taken.

I just ask any one of the gun nuts I know and they teach me a whole shitload of stuff,for free.

IMO the best info you get are from people that are willing to give it out for free.

Maybe... maybe not. It really depends. Most folks are willing to help no question. Some are snobby but some are willing to help for free. I know personally that many people, including Jim have a sincere interest in helping people. I respect that whether they run courses or not.

On the other hand I know there are serveral people out there that although they might be willing to help... are NOT qualified to give it. I think I'm fortunate to be able to determine who knows what... others might not be. Most of the better known organizations have been stellar IMHO.

Sometimes there is a reason you pay for things.....

 

[FalArAk]

Wow. I've never thought something like this. Sorry I call BS on this. Some classes maybe... but NONE I've ever taken.

My first 2 words in that statement was "To me", as in "My opinion".Because a thought has yet to cross your mind,does not make it BS.

On the other hand I know there are serveral people out there that although they might be willing to help... are NOT qualified to give it.

I would have to ask, what makes one "qualified" to give advice or hold a class ? Does someone who attended classes qualify as a person who can give advice or hold a class ? Who made up these classes anyway ? Who qualified the classes and what makes them qualified to do so ?

See what I'm saying ?

Bottom line,if you like the classes and think they help you,that's cool.Hell,they might help me,who knows.But the OP asked OPINIONS on why people don't attend classes.

 

[Lugnut]

I would have to ask, what makes one "qualified" to give advice or hold a class ? Does someone who attended classes qualify as a person who can give advice or hold a class ? Who made up these classes anyway ? Who qualified the classes and what makes them qualified to do so ?

See what I'm saying ?

LOL- yeah many thoughts cross my mind. I'm sure there are some courses that "prey on peoples' fears" IMHO I don't think that is the norm- that's all I'm trying to say. I'm not trying to sway you, what you do is your business.

If you are asking how I would tell if someone was qualified there are many answers. In no specific order:

If an instructor has a achieved a high level of success at a given type of competition- Bulleye, IDPA, IPSC, etc. then I am "reasonably certain" that person obtains a fair amount of skills/knowledge that I may not have. That alone doesn't make one a great teacher but at least I'm confident in their skills.

I've been to several Sigarms classes and although I can't recall my exact instructor credentials, I now that one, Bruce Gray is a Grand Master IPSC shooter. Another has a lengthy resume as a military instructor.

The other thing I rely on is references. Some courses are well regarded amoung our peers.

I'm honestly very fortunate that I've been able to take some great classes. I've also met some great folks that have been willing to share great free information.

The one thing that has driven me to get formal classes is that I practice quite a bit on my own and I don't want to shoot thousands of rounds to find I'm just making bad habits harder to break.

 

[Paulm]

So in preparation for taking a class, just what equipment is needed? Len mentioned a kydex holster, mag carriers and a belt.

I have a belt on order from gunners alley but am looking for guidance on the other stuff. Any recommendations on style of holster (given from previous posters that OWB may be the best bet for training but with or without thumb break for example),manufacturer, number of mags, number of mag carriers?

Any feedback is appreciated

Paul

 

[matt]

Both

I have nothing against the people that attend classes to better themselves.

One of my reasons for not going is that I think they are way overpriced.To me those courses are a business preying on people's fears of the unknown giving them a false confidence that they can handle any situation if it arises.

Do I need someone to show me how to take out my HK faster ? Maybe.I just ask any one of the gun nuts I know and they teach me a whole shitload of stuff,for free.

IMO the best info you get are from people that are willing to give it out for free.That's why I love going to the range and talking to fellow gunowners that aren't out to make a buck if you need to learn something.

Besides,I get all the training I need watching "24" a lot and pretending to be Jack Bauer.

Have you ever taken a class? It is not clear what you are basing your impressions of these training classes on.

 

[andy t]

Greg,

I have yet to meet an instructor that seemed like he was trying to scare us or make us belief that his particular techniques make one invincible. As a matter of fact, one of the istructors that has been teaching for longer than I have been alive, maintains that even if you do everything right in a gunfight, it's still going to depend 90% on luck.
While there are a lot of good instructors, it is important to find those that you have a good rapport with, and like their training methods. For instance, I recently took a class with an instructor that like to focus on shooting. A lot of shooting - 1500 rounds over two days. While this is good for people who are already proficient marksman and have a good grasp on basics (not me). I like to prefer - at least for now - classes that have a lower rounds count / day, and more individual diagnostics/error correction.
For those of you that have not taken a course yet, I would recommend Tom Givens's Dynamic Pistol course next June. While I have not studies with any of the other instructors NEShooters will be hosting next year, in my experience, Tom's curriculum is well structured combining gun handling, shooting and mindset. The last being , perhaps, the most important of the three.
Bugieman,

I second the recommendation for OWB. While it's nice to stay as close to real life as possible, one learns the hard way. In the last course I took, I decided to be as realistic as possible, keeping my IWB comp-tac on throughout the entire 11 hour day.
At the end, I was rewarded with irritations on my side where my fingernails dug in during drawstroke and the need to tuck in my shirt when we started doing a lot of from the holster drills.
I would also recommend investing in a pair of electronic earmuffs. This way you will never miss a joke that someone, on the other end of the line told.
Another valuable aspect of training with different instructors is that you will get a fuller picture of different techniques and then you can cherry pick those that work the best for you.

Andrew.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I just gave the example of what I used in my first class and subsequent ones.

I already owned and used the Fobus, so that's what I brought.

After the first class, some discussion with others and a lot of online research led me to some other, more expensive solutions. What I bought was NOT bought strictly for class use, but what I actually wear when carrying concealed, working or for a day at the range.

Why not check out the pictures from the last 3 years of classes that Jim Conway (OP) brought to the area. You'll see what others are using.
http://www.neshooters.com/gallery.html is where the pictures can be found.

 

[FalArAk]

Have you ever taken a class? It is not clear what you are basing your impressions of these training classes on.

I should have prefaced my comments with "defensive handgun" type classes.The classes that teach marksmanship and discipline do not apply to my comments.

Hell,I can't shoot a pistol worth a damn,ask Derek,Brent or Centermass.I could use LOTS of instruction pertaining to marksmanship and discipline regarding pistols.

 

[M1911]

So in preparation for taking a class, just what equipment is needed? Len mentioned a kydex holster, mag carriers and a belt.

Most every class has a list of required equipment. Go to the school's web site and look at what they require. It's generally not an extensive list. Typically:

- good gun belt
- strong side holster. It doesn't have to be Kydex. It just has to work. I recommend OWB.
- two mag/speedloader/moon-clip holders
- quality gun
- minimum of three magazines/2 speedloaders/bunch of moon-clips.
- ear protection
- eye protection
- hat with bill (e.g., baseball cap)
- ammo

Depending on the class, they may require concealment attire (e.g., vest and/or sweatshirt) and a flashlight.

If the class has a high round count, then you probably want more magazines, particularly if you are using a single-stack gun. I usually use a M1911 and bring 5+ magazines.

Some of the nice to haves (but not required) include:

- electronic ear muffs
- backup gun, in case your primary goes down
- breakfree or other spray-in cleaner/lub
- towel
- cleaning kit
- lunch
- drinking water (if not provided)
- first aid kit (instructor will probably have one too)
- range bag to carry all your stuff
- rain gear
- sweatshirt/coat in case it is cold.

I find that cargo pants work well at courses, because you can put a bunch of extra ammo in your cargo pockets. That minimizes the time you spend running back to your shooting bag for more ammo.

You probably have 90% of this stuff already.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

One of my reasons for not going is that I think they are way overpriced.

Try not to confuse "costs a lot of discretionary cash" with "overpriced."

There is a big difference between what someone needs to charge to make a little spare cash on the side running an intro course at the local club and what it takes to support an instructor doing it for a living. I've taught a number of intro courses "on the cheap" - but it's always been as a volunteer promoting either the gun club or USPSA. It's not reasonable to expect that sort of pricing from someone doing it for a living.

Figure salaries, insurance, taxes and down time the instructor doesn't get paid for. Add in to that the fact that someone running a business is taking the risk to get a larger potential reward than becoming an employee somehwere, and pretty soon you're talking real money.

Just take a look at what commercial training costs for 5 days of classroom time for a course on Microsoft software, Oracle database administration or any one of a number of technologies. It's going to make a shooting course look cheap - even if you provide the classroom and a dozen shooters for the instructor.

You'll find prices comparable to Jim Crews and his team if you check out "commercial", rather than "gun club semi volunteer", intro firearms classes. The American Firearms School basic class is $99 for one day, and the AG Guns basic course costs $125 for the day of instruction.

 

[M1911]

I should have prefaced my comments with "defensive handgun" type classes.The classes that teach marksmanship and discipline do not apply to my comments.

Hell,I can't shoot a pistol worth a damn,ask Derek,Brent or Centermass.I could use LOTS of instruction pertaining to marksmanship and discipline regarding pistols.

Some of the best marksmanship training I've received was at defensive training classes.

 

[M1911]

I have a belt on order from gunners alley but am looking for guidance on the other stuff. Any recommendations on style of holster (given from previous posters that OWB may be the best bet for training but with or without thumb break for example),manufacturer, number of mags, number of mag carriers?

There are lots of good holster makers. I've had good luck with Comp-tac and Rusty Sherrick, but there are lots of other good ones.

You only need two magazine carriers. Skip the thumb break. There's no need for it in a class and it will only get in the way. Besides, there aren't many Kydex holsters made with a thumb break. If you insist on a holster with a retention device, I recommend AGAINST the Blackhawk Serpa holster -- look at Safariland's holster with a rotating hood.

 

[JimConway]

Gear for classes

Give me a call at 603-673-6105 (days) and I would be happy to walk you through the items (both minimum and optimal choises) that I would recommend

 

[fubar]

I am about to look much more deeply into classes w/ Jim Conway's crew.

My previous training in general consisted of 20 years of Korean unarmed martial arts mixed with some Japanese & Thai systems. I just began some filipino stuff. martial arts are something I find necessary for me - I just feel wrong if I am not actively involved in training.

If you take a guy , any one guy , ... he has some ability to fight. Maybe he sucks or maybe he is a natural. And maybe that is enough for him. But if he finds a good teacher and pays his dues in effort - he will become much much better. Period.

I was also in the Guard in the early 80's. Yankee Division MP Co. When I go to the range I watch people shoot tricked out AR's from a benchrest. I can't shoot as well as they do for the most part , but in a fight I know I want an infantry man or MP on my side much more than a benchrest bullseye champ. Unless that trophy winner is ALSO a former soldier - because he has been trained to fight.

I have a friend named Pete , I asked him about classes once & he replied : " I've been shooting for 30 years, they can't teach me anything."
I let it drop , but what I thought was : I've been driving for 30 years , but that doesn't make me a competive race driver.

If I want to be better than I am at defending my self and family with a pistol - or a rifle - I want someone to teach me , and I want that person to be committed to giving me the day of his undivided effort to make the group I am in learn from him and enjoy it. He wants the same so we tell our friends and come back.

I can't get that from a tip here or there or a book , or video. I have to give money time and work. But I like to learn to be better at whatever I do.

 

[Lugnut]

But I like to learn to be better at whatever I do.

+1

I've never met a person that was perfect at anything... however I'm far from perfect myself and have so much to learn.

 

[JimConway]

Training

Fubar
I am pleased that you are considering training. You will get along real well with one of our other trainers who holda a number of Black Belts and teachs regularly scheduled classes. Please feel free to give me a call at 603-673-6105
Your comment about the guy that has been shooting for 30 years sounds familiar. I am sure that we have all met him. Someone that I worked with years ago, Described his type as "one year of experience repeated thirty times"

 

[dwarven1]

I have a friend named Pete , I asked him about classes once & he replied : " I've been shooting for 30 years, they can't teach me anything."

Ask him if he's a better shot than Annie Oakley, Carlos Hathcock & Sgt York. And Jerry Miculek. If he can answer yes, HONESTLY, then I'd agree that they have nothing to teach him.

Otherwise... I'd have to agree with him... they can't teach him anything. Not with that attitude, they can't.

 

[drgrant]

Ask him if he's a better shot than Annie Oakley, Carlos Hathcock & Sgt York. And Jerry Miculek. If he can answer yes, HONESTLY, then I'd agree that they have nothing to teach him.

Otherwise... I'd have to agree with him... they can't teach him anything. Not with that attitude, they can't.

Fixed it for you, Ross.

-Mike

 

[dwarven1]

That should teach me to post at work with other things on my mind. Thanks, Mike.

 

[Big Daddy 45acp]

I was also in the Guard in the early 80's. Yankee Division MP Co. When I go to the range I watch people shoot tricked out AR's from a benchrest. I can't shoot as well as they do for the most part , but in a fight I know I want an infantry man or MP on my side much more than a benchrest bullseye champ. Unless that trophy winner is ALSO a former soldier - because he has been trained to fight.

Jim,
You forgot to mention that you also have 2 former Army MP's on staff!
And we can still shoot despite the Army training!

 

[JimConway]

Training the know it all

I have been in classes and have taught classes with men that think they knew everything that there was to know. In fact, I was close to that condition at one time before my first class. I really believe that, if you can get the guy into a class and he pays any attention at all, he will take the first steps toward learning. Lets face it, you do not want to learn until you figure out that you do not know something that you need to know.

In one recent class, I had an individual that resisted the training on one specific point which caused him to possibly be unsafe in a real world situation. His rational was that he had never had a problem with his way. I explained the right way and why that way was safer. The next day, another instructor made a point of reenforcing what I had told him.
I next saw this man about a week later, when he told me that he was wrong and that our way way was much safer. Then he said Thank You. He made my day.

 

[Big Daddy 45acp]

Fubar...check your private messages.

 

[depicts]

I want to take some formal training, but a few things block the way.

What gun to train with? I am short, so I carry a snub 38/357 in my pocket. I find it kind of hard to conceal except in winter/fall clothes, unless I use behind the back carry, which seems a potential danger for back damage if you fall on your gun in a struggle.

I carried smaller .380's for a number of years, either in pocket or IWB. I changed because I wanted more horsepower.

I have more guns than holsters, and haven't really found anything that seems to suite me, other than a nice Strong Pancake holster for my GP100.

Every time I go looking for good gun leather I end up buying another gun instead. That keeps me from getting the holster, and also takes some of the money for training.

My ego tells me that, Yay though I walk through the valley of death, I am the baddest SOB in the valley. That thought alone got me through a year in Vietnam with plenty of Elephant sightings. Military combat doesn't equate to on street self defense, but I know how I react under great stress and danger, and feel I can hold my own face to face.

I'm not worried about what other people will think. I know what I can do, and if someone is better than me, I want to learn what they know, man, woman or child.

I think due to physical limits and abilities, a "custom" approach to defense sometimes is the answer. Granted you need the basics, but some black belt former cop instructor who 6'2" and 220 pounds carrying a Colt 45 auto isn't going to fight the same way I am.

I do think I need all the training I can get in lawful use of CCW. I dream of taking that from Ayoob. No offense to Suarez, but Ayoob has been the man for me since I was young.

I guess I have all kinds of excuses. What it finially comes down to is that I "AM" in condition yellow or higher all the time, and feel prepared.

I've rambled on enough. Lete me re-read this and see if I can figure myself out

 

[Len-2A Training]

Couple of comments:

- SOB carry: I did it for a long time, not the best and I was "outed" twice that way, but I don't make a habit of falling on my back, so all the stories of why this isn't a good thing to do pale in comparison to the more practical reasons why SOB isn't as good as other methods.

- Shopping for QUALITY holsters: Ain't gonna happen at any gun shop in these parts. Good holsters cost serious money and won't move in a gun shop. People buy $800 guns and won't spend more than $30-40 for a holster. The way to buy good holsters is doing some research online, checking out the equipment people use in those classes you haven't taken yet and mostly you'll need to order over the Internet.