Winchester ammunition

[paulmac]

HI. New gun owner question here. Hope someone can help.
I just bought some Winchester .40 s&w 165gr. fmj rounds for target/range. I want to find out if these contain non-corrosive primers. I tried their website, and I tried Googling for a while with no luck.
Second novice question.I've noticed that the cartridges that I've seen( not that many) all say .40 S&W. I assume that the S&W is Smith and Wesson, but are they the only ones that produce .40 cartridges?
Thanks,
Paul.
P.s. I've only posted a few times. How did this question end up in the GUN LAWS section?

 

[EddieCoyle]

I'm sure a Mod will be along to move this to where it belongs.

Welcome to the forum.

There is no US-manufactured (and probably not any foreign-made) .40 caliber ammo with corrosive primers. The .40 didn't appear until the 90's, and for the most part, US manufacturers had stopped using corrosive primer 50 years before that.

You won't find a mention of it on the mfg's website because by now it is a foregone conclusion that primers are non-corrosive.

 

[paulmac]

Thanks for replying and welcoming me to the forum, EddieCoyle. Any thoughts on the second part of my question regarding S&W?

 

[highlander]

S&W is Smith and Wesson. I think non corrosive primers have been around since before WW2. Exception to that is ammo made for the US military prior to the 50's IIRC. military wanted to make sure non corrosive primers were stable

 

[EddieCoyle]

Thanks for replying and welcoming me to the forum, EddieCoyle. Any thoughts on the second part of my question regarding S&W?

S&W does indeed stand for Smith & Wesson. The designation at the end of the cartridge usually refers to the party that was responsible for development, not for who makes it. The ammo manufacturer is also (usually) stamped on the end of the cartridge (this is called the "headstamp"). There's a link on here someplace that goes to a page that has a list of manufacturers by headstamp.

Whoever designs the cartridge gets to name it whatever they want. The name usually consists of the caliber and developer - for example the .40 S&W.

To make things more confusing, the "caliber" in the designation is not always the actual bullet diameter. The .38 Special bullet is actually a nominal .357" in diameter. For the record, the .38 Special was originally called the .38 S&W Special. Other examples of this include the .44 Magnum (.429" diameter), the .460 S&W Magnum (.451') diameter and the .32 ACP (.312" diameter). ACP stands for Automatic Colt Pistol.

Every major (and minor) ammo manufacturer makes the .40 S&W (which really is .400" in diameter).

 

[M1911]

I just bought some Winchester .40 s&w 165gr. fmj rounds for target/range. I want to find out if these contain non-corrosive primers. I tried their website, and I tried Googling for a while with no luck.

As others have pointed out, no major manufacturer makes ammunition with corrosive primers. You may find some surplus ammo with corrosive primers, but that's pretty old stuff these days.

Second novice question.I've noticed that the cartridges that I've seen( not that many) all say .40 S&W. I assume that the S&W is Smith and Wesson, but are they the only ones that produce .40 cartridges?

In 1986, the FBI was involved in a horrific shootout in Miami:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FBI_Miami_shootout,_1986

Early in the firefight, one of the bad guys was hit in the underarm area with a 9mm round from an agent's pistol. The hit was deemed fatal, but because it stopped an inch or so from perp's heart, he went on to wound and kill several agents. The FBI then became convinced that 9mm was too weak, so they went to the 10mm round, using S&W pistols.

The FBI then found that many agents had problems with the recoil from the 10mm round, so they reduced the load. After a while, Winchester and S&W realized that the reduced load in the 10mm left a lot of empty area in the cartridge case. One of the disadvantages of the 10mm round is that it has a long overall length, requiring a large pistol frame. So they figured that they could get the same ballistic performance out of a shortened cartridge case of the same diameter as the reduced load 10mm. This would then allow the design of a pistol with the same ballistic performance, but with a frame about the same size as a 9mm frame. Thus was born the .40 S&W.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10_mm_Auto

IIRC, the .40 S&W round was created by Winchester, working with S&W. While it is named after S&W, S&W does not produce the ammunition. It is produced by many different ammunition manufacturers and there are many different gun makers that produce guns chambered in .40 S&W.

 

[NFD9]

M1911,
Wow, Awesome post!
Thanks
Gary

 

[paulmac]

Thanks so much, guys. Very thorough explanations; everything that I needed. My knowledge is increasing daily by reading this forum, and as you folks pass information on to me, I can do the same for others.
Regards.

 

[highlander]

There was a movie starring Micheal Gross on the Miami Shootout but I can't remember the name of it. And yes it's THAT Micheal Gross "Burt Gummer" of the "Tremors" movies

 

[Jose]

paulmac, welcome aboard.

And when you are ready to be immersed in gun geekery, we can talk about the differences in caliber designation between American/English practice and CIP/metric.

 

[vellnueve]

The only really corrosive ammo you will find these days is Eastern bloc and European milsurp and old US .30 and .45 milsurp. Anything else is likely to be non-corrosive, especially if its US manufacture within the last 50 years.

For the record, someone above stated that the US military held off on noncorrosive primers during WW2, but all .30 carbine ammunition made during WW2 and since was and is noncorrosive. I contend that with the urgency of the war the military simply did not want to change a tried and true cartridge in the .30-06, but since the .30 carbine was a brand new cartridge they were able to incorporate non-corrosive primers from the ground up.

 

[Jose]

vellnueve, do not lump all European milsurp in the corrosive category, because it is not.

Anything wity a NATO circle-cross stamp on the head stamp is definitely not going to be corrosive, such as the recent Radway Green (UK) M855 surplus.

ETA: I know the Brits don't call it M855 (that's our name for it) but it is the same stuff.

 

[Scrivener]

I think the Euro term is "SS 109," but I am not positive. I have also seen one merchant selling the RG ammo advise that it is slightly heavier; 63 v. 62 grains, as well as eschewing the green paint on the tip.

The better for NOT attracting attention.....

 

[vellnueve]

vellnueve, do not lump all European milsurp in the corrosive category, because it is not.

Anything wity a NATO circle-cross stamp on the head stamp is definitely not going to be corrosive, such as the recent Radway Green (UK) M855 surplus.

ETA: I know the Brits don't call it M855 (that's our name for it) but it is the same stuff.

I did not mean to intimate this. I mainly meant the Romanian, Hungarian 7.62x54, etc, 8mm and the like. I was more trying to make the point that the majority of corrosive ammo will come from European and Eastern bloc countries since most of the US corrosive milsurp has long since dried up.

I personally consider the recent Portuguese 7.62x51 to be the best of the recent milsurp ammo.

 

[Jose]

I think the Euro term is "SS 109," but I am not positive. I have also seen one merchant selling the RG ammo advise that it is slightly heavier; 63 v. 62 grains, as well as eschewing the green paint on the tip.

The better for NOT attracting attention.....

SS 109 is the designation given by FN (its developer) to the projectile used in M855.

The actual name for the cartridge that contains the SS 109 bullet changes from country to country. M855 in the US, no idea what other NATO countries call it. Note that Swiss GP90 (Gewher Patrone 90) uses a 62 grain lead core bullet and does not meet NATO STANAG.

Radway Green 5.56X45 surplus is indeed 62 grains, as it is a NATO standard cartridge. The 63 grain claim is mistaken. RG has no green tip because it does not need it. The green tip marking is not part of the NATO STANAG (Standardization Agreement) regarding 5.56X45 because no NATO country except us rearmed with 5.56 rifles before the advent of the SS 109 bullet.

We mark M855 Ball with the green tip so that those few units still using M16A1 rifles do not load up with it. The M16A1, with its 1 in 12 rifling, requires M193 Ball which has unpainted bullets. Since these are not front line units, the lack of green tips on other NATO 5.56 is irrelevant. Also, all of our NATO allies' rifles have 1 in 7 rifling (like our M16A2/M16A4/M4 carbine) and can shoot our M855 or M193 without any accuracy degradation.

The things you learn in the .mil..............

 

[vellnueve]

The Swiss have their own rifling as well, and considering the results they can get with the Sig 550 series, I'm not so sure that they didn't get it right.