You Could Say I Am a Sniper Now ...

[Woodsloafer]

These guys explain it ...

An Official Journal Of The NRA | 6.5 Creedmoor: Why Is It So Popular?

While some consider the 6.5 Creedmoor a new cartridge, ballistically speaking, it’s actually on par with a much older offering. But that doesn't stop it from taking over the precision-shooting world.

www.shootingillustrated.com

Another stupid comparison with no data, you're smarter than that. Let's see an exact comparison of loads with the "longer" bullets in the 6.5 and 260, utilizing the same exact bullets and powder, there will be no difference except for the seating depths in the respective cases.

Look in the Hodgdon manual, almost exactly the same powder/powder weights for 143, 147, 150, and 153 grain bullets, all almost exactly the same velocities with the SAME overall cartridge length (2.8 inches).

One of the heaviest, highest BC bullets I could find in loaded ammo for both cartridges (I wanted to find an EXACT comparison with a heavy for caliber bullet), the 6.5 beats the 260 by a whole 45 fps

260 Remington 156gr Berger EOL Elite Hunter – Copper Creek Cartridge Co.

coppercreekcartridgeco.com

6.5 Creedmoor 156gr Berger EOL Elite Hunter – Copper Creek Cartridge Co.

coppercreekcartridgeco.com

Let's take a look at Hornady Superformance ammo (again, an EXACT comparison), 260 @ 2930 fps, 6.5 @ 2950, truly revolutionary at 20 fps faster, eh? And I have a feeling that the 6.5 is loaded to a slightly higher pressure and that if the 260 was loaded to the same pressure it would beat it.

260 Rem 129 gr SST® Superformance® - Hornady Manufacturing, Inc

...

www.hornady.com

6.5 Creedmoor 129 gr SST® Superformance® - Hornady Manufacturing, Inc

...

www.hornady.com

 

[PappyM3]

Another stupid comparison with no data, you're smarter than that. Let's see an exact comparison of loads with the "longer" bullets in the 6.5 and 260, utilizing the same exact bullets and powder, there will be no difference except for the seating depths in the respective cases.

Look in the Hodgdon manual, almost exactly the same powder/powder weights for 143, 147, 150, and 153 grain bullets, all almost exactly the same velocities with the SAME overall cartridge length (2.8 inches).

One of the heaviest, highest BC bullets I could find in loaded ammo for both cartridges (I wanted to find an EXACT comparison with a heavy for caliber bullet), the 6.5 beats the 260 by a whole 45 fps

260 Remington 156gr Berger EOL Elite Hunter – Copper Creek Cartridge Co.

coppercreekcartridgeco.com

6.5 Creedmoor 156gr Berger EOL Elite Hunter – Copper Creek Cartridge Co.

coppercreekcartridgeco.com

Interesting about the longer bullets, just seated deeper. Still a limit based on ogive for any given bullet, and powder capacity.

As for comparing Hodgdon like for like powder amounts, that’s not quite right because 6.5 CM gets 2k more psi.

 

[Woodsloafer]

Interesting about the longer bullets, just seated deeper. Still a limit based on ogive for any given bullet, and powder capacity.

As for comparing Hodgdon like for like powder amounts, that’s not quite right because 6.5 CM gets 2k more psi.

Exactly, if the 260 was loaded to the same pressure as the 6.5, the 260 would beat it across the board, not significantly but by a bit with all bullets. And if you chambered the 260 in a bit longer action that allowed the same seating depths as the 6.5 and knew what you were doing as far as pressures it would be faster than the 6.5 by an even larger margin (but that would defeat the purpose of a short action), if you did the same with the 6.5 it may not be possible because the shorter case may not support seating the bullets out further in a slightly longer action.

 

[40 Creedmoor fan]

6.5 Grendel guys: why is 6 ARC getting all the attention and 6.5 Grendel has fallen into obscurity?!

 

[Woodsloafer]

6.5 Grendel guys: why is 6 ARC getting all the attention and 6.5 Grendel has fallen into obscurity?!

Cuz people are sheep.

 

[MGnoob]

I want to be an operator…..
Don’t shoot much anymore but could set up close to a 1000yard target… need a new backstop though.. I could get by without it. once I learn to shoot that distance anyway.

I was wanted a 50.. I can get a 50% discount on a .338… but I don’t think I can get the discount for the glass and that’s gonna cost more than it’s gonna cost me for the riffle.

 

[PappyM3]

6.5 Grendel guys: why is 6 ARC getting all the attention and 6.5 Grendel has fallen into obscurity?!

1. 6 ARC is newer
2. 6 ARC is faster and can have higher BC
3. 6 ARC is being used by some SOF/SMUs, though not to any sizeable extent to provide any benefit to consumers

6.5 Grendel still has the advantage with cheap ammo availability though. And it seems to still be the choice for people who want to hunt with the cartridge.

Overall, unless 6 ARC’s ammo availability increases and more options come to market, then I think 6 ARC may start to wither away.

 

[PappyM3]

I want to be an operator…..
Don’t shoot much anymore but could set up close to a 1000yard target… need a new backstop though.. I could get by without it. once I learn to shoot that distance anyway.

I was wanted a 50.. I can get a 50% discount on a .338… but I don’t think I can get the discount for the glass and that’s gonna cost more than it’s gonna cost me for the riffle.

You can easily hit 1k yards with calibers/cartridges much smaller than 338. But I do get wanting a large cartridge just for the fun.

 

[PappyM3]

Exactly, if the 260 was loaded to the same pressure as the 6.5, the 260 would beat it across the board, not significantly but by a bit with all bullets. And if you chambered the 260 in a bit longer action that allowed the same seating depths as the 6.5 and knew what you were doing as far as pressures it would be faster than the 6.5 by an even larger margin (but that would defeat the purpose of a short action), if you did the same with the 6.5 it may not be possible because the shorter case may not support seating the bullets out further in a slightly longer action.

Yeah, but you’re not going to get factory 260 at the higher pressures. Most people want a plug n’ play solution, and 6.5 CM is the better option there. As far as I’m tracking, when the 260 vs 6.5 CM showdown was actually going down, there were not factory 260 options with the longer bullets. That seems to be a newer occurrence with boutique ammo companies. Normal factory ammo is all 120-130gr, with an occasional 140gr OTM that’s not quite as long as the tipped 140gr or 147gr options. The high BC 260 Rem options are really only for reloaders or small boutique ammo companies.

260 may still be a good option for re-loaders, but that’s not going to make it more popular than 6.5 CM which has great factory options available. 260 Rem missed the boat when the battle was going on, partially due to marketing, but also because they didn’t have factory options people wanted.

Edit: Oh, also twist rate. Some of the longer bullets will only be marginally stable out of the 260 Rem’s 1:9 twist, but will be more assuredly stable in the Creedmoor’s 1:8 twist. The marginal stability will lead to lower BCs than advertised. Sure, you can get custom 260 Rem barrels in 1:8 or 1:7 twist, but again… factory offerings. People like turn-key.

 

[Broc]

Another stupid comparison with no data, you're smarter than that. Let's see an exact comparison of loads with the "longer" bullets in the 6.5 and 260, utilizing the same exact bullets and powder, there will be no difference except for the seating depths in the respective cases.

Look in the Hodgdon manual, almost exactly the same powder/powder weights for 143, 147, 150, and 153 grain bullets, all almost exactly the same velocities with the SAME overall cartridge length (2.8 inches).

One of the heaviest, highest BC bullets I could find in loaded ammo for both cartridges (I wanted to find an EXACT comparison with a heavy for caliber bullet), the 6.5 beats the 260 by a whole 45 fps

260 Remington 156gr Berger EOL Elite Hunter – Copper Creek Cartridge Co.

coppercreekcartridgeco.com

6.5 Creedmoor 156gr Berger EOL Elite Hunter – Copper Creek Cartridge Co.

coppercreekcartridgeco.com

Let's take a look at Hornady Superformance ammo (again, an EXACT comparison), 260 @ 2930 fps, 6.5 @ 2950, truly revolutionary at 20 fps faster, eh? And I have a feeling that the 6.5 is loaded to a slightly higher pressure and that if the 260 was loaded to the same pressure it would beat it.

260 Rem 129 gr SST® Superformance® - Hornady Manufacturing, Inc

...

www.hornady.com

6.5 Creedmoor 129 gr SST® Superformance® - Hornady Manufacturing, Inc

...

www.hornady.com

The article is not about the stupid comparison at the end. It just explains, at a very high level, the bullets and why some longer bullets in 260 that could get the job done are not used.

 

[Woodsloafer]

The article is not about the stupid comparison at the end. It just explains, at a very high level, the bullets and why some longer bullets in 260 that could get the job done are not used.

With absolutely no, nada, none, examples of specific bullets that will not work in a 260 but work in a 6.5, yeah, that's really "high level". All the handloads for both the 260 and 6.5 are limited by magazine/throat length. I provided an exact example with the 156 grain Berger loaded in both cartridges. Show me one, just one, example of a long/heavy bullet loaded in in the 6.5 that cannot be loaded in the 260, both with the same overall cartridge length (it will be seated slightly deeper in the 260), and achieve essentially the same velocity with the same powder.

 

[Broc]

With absolutely no, nada, none, examples of specific bullets that will not work in a 260 but work in a 6.5, yeah, that's really "high level". All the handloads for both the 260 and 6.5 are limited by magazine/throat length. I provided an exact example with the 156 grain Berger loaded in both cartridges. Show me one, just one, example of a long/heavy bullet loaded in in the 6.5 that cannot be loaded in the 260, both with the same overall cartridge length (it will be seated slightly deeper in the 260), and achieve essentially the same velocity with the same powder.

I won't show you any examples because I don't care. I don't shoot 260 and I have no interest in 260. I looked at it when deciding between that an 6.5cm, I went with 6.5cm.

The article I posted, and as I mentioned, explained at a high level some of the potential issues with longer bullets. I will not spend hours researching this for a cartridge I don't care about.

260 fell behind 6.5cm. It is what it is.

Although that is an interesting topic, maybe you can start a new thread asking people that stopped shooting 260, why they stopped.

 

[PappyM3]

With absolutely no, nada, none, examples of specific bullets that will not work in a 260 but work in a 6.5, yeah, that's really "high level". All the handloads for both the 260 and 6.5 are limited by magazine/throat length. I provided an exact example with the 156 grain Berger loaded in both cartridges. Show me one, just one, example of a long/heavy bullet loaded in in the 6.5 that cannot be loaded in the 260, both with the same overall cartridge length (it will be seated slightly deeper in the 260), and achieve essentially the same velocity with the same powder.

Show me a factory 260 rifle with a 1:8 twist and a non-boutique factory 260 load with a high BC bullet.

 

[Broc]

I have to say, this could be more interesting than the "unethical" conversation earlier in this thread.

 

[Woodsloafer]

I won't show you any examples because I don't care. I don't shoot 260 and I have no interest in 260. I looked at it when deciding between that an 6.5cm, I went with 6.5cm.

The article I posted, and as I mentioned, explained at a high level some of the potential issues with longer bullets. I will not spend hours researching this for a cartridge I don't care about.

260 fell behind 6.5cm. It is what it is.

Although that is an interesting topic, maybe you can start a new thread asking people that stopped shooting 260, why they stopped.

Pretty simple, spent 5 minutes, not hours. Sierra 150 Matchking is highest BC that I can find, loaded (Hodgdon manual) with the same powders/weights at almost the same exact velocities at the same overall cartridge length.

Highest BC 6.5mm (.264 caliber) Bullets: A comparison chart – Backfire

backfire.tv

 

[Broc]

Pretty simple, spent 5 minutes, not hours. Sierra 150 Matchking is highest BC that I can find, loaded (Hodgdon manual) with the same powders/weights at almost the same exact velocities at the same overall cartridge length.

Highest BC 6.5mm (.264 caliber) Bullets: A comparison chart – Backfire

backfire.tv

From the link:

You won’t find all of these bullets in factory loads, so most of this information is for handloaders

This is what people have been trying to point out.

 

[Woodsloafer]

From the link:


This is what people have been trying to point out.

Dude, you just told me earlier that the reason was that high BC bullets won't work in the 260 but now your saying it is because they are not available in factory loads????

You said:

The article is not about the stupid comparison at the end. It just explains, at a very high level, the bullets and why some longer bullets in 260 that could get the job done are not used.

 

[PappyM3]

Pretty simple, spent 5 minutes, not hours. Sierra 150 Matchking is highest BC that I can find, loaded (Hodgdon manual) with the same powders/weights at almost the same exact velocities at the same overall cartridge length.

Highest BC 6.5mm (.264 caliber) Bullets: A comparison chart – Backfire

backfire.tv

That bullet is not going to stabilize in a SAAMI 260 Rem barrel. It will only barely stabilize in a SAAMI 6.5 CM barrel. But as you go down the list, there are more high BC bullets that will stabilize in a SAAMI 6.5 CM barrel and will not properly stabilize in a SAAMI 260 Rem barrel. …. And you’re not getting them off the shelf at a local store in 260 Rem even if you had a custom 260 Rem barrel with a tighter twist.

 

[Woodsloafer]

That bullet is not going to stabilize in a SAAMI 260 Rem barrel. It will only marginally stabilize in a 6.5 CM barrel. But as you go down the list, there are high BC bullets that will stabilize in a SAAMI 6.5 CM barrel and will not properly stabilize in a SAAMI 260 Rem barrel. …. And you’re not getting them off the shelf at a local store in 260 Rem even if you had a custom 260 Rem barrel with a tighter twist.

With the same twist rate, the same powders, the same bullets, the same overall loaded cartridge lengths, there is no difference between the 6.5 and the 260. If you want to throw in what is available in factory rifles and factory ammo, then, yes, the 6.5 has an advantage. Hornady created this cartridge to sell their ammo, of course they did not want to promote a Remington cartridge so they tweaked it a little bit and everyone thought they reinvented the wheel.

 

[PappyM3]

With the same twist rate, the same powders, the same bullets, the same overall loaded cartridge lengths, there is no difference between the 6.5 and the 260. If you want to throw in what is available in factory rifles and factory ammo, then, yes, the 6.5 has an advantage. Hornady created this cartridge to sell their ammo, of course they did not want to promote a Remington cartridge so they tweaked it a little bit and everyone thought they reinvented the wheel.

But they don’t use the same twist rate, and factory loads don’t use the same bullets.

“If we changed the 260 Rem design outside of it’s SAAMI spec, then it would be the same as 6.5 CM”

That’s a dishonest comparison. Again, 260 Rem in SAAMI spec cannot stabilize the high BC bullets and in factory loads available in stores you cannot get 260 Rem with the high BC bullets.

Yes, reloaders or people exclusively buying from boutique companies, using custom twist barrels, can do what 6.5 CM does and maybe better in a mid or long action.

But that’s not the vast majority of people buying the cartridges. And that’s why 260 lost in the 6.5 short action race.

Face it, 260 Rem was not designed for the high BC bullets. It was not released with them as factory loads, and its SAAMI spec confirms it. Sure, you can make it work with custom work on the users end. But that’s not what wins the consumer cartridge market. It’s not just Hornady being better at marketing, it’s them putting out a product that was designed more for what people were gravitating towards.

Sure, maybe 6.5 CM is barely different from 260 Rem. But it’s different enough.

As for Hornady wanting to sell their ammo, that doesn’t make any sense. They could just as easily have made 260 Rem loads. If 260 Rem got popular, they’d still sell tons of 260 Rem with Hornady bullets.

 

[Broc]

Dude, you just told me earlier that the reason was that high BC bullets won't work in the 260 but now your saying it is because they are not available in factory loads????

You said:

I said an article explains why some longer bullets are not used, I never said longer bullets dont work. Again, high level article that doesn't cover every grey area and it was focused more on factory ammo.

It was just one article to provide a high level overview. That is it. No need to obsess over it.

Keep in mind, the article wasn't wrong, since most of those bullets are not used in easily obtained, or cheap, commercial ammo.

 

[PappyM3]

I said an article explains why some longer bullets are not used, I never said longer bullets dont work. Again, high level article that doesn't cover every grey area and it was focused more on factory ammo.

It was just one article to provide a high level overview. That is it. No need to obsess over it.

Keep in mind, the article wasn't wrong, since most of those bullets are not used in easily obtained, or cheap, commercial ammo.

But if you had, you wouldn’t be wrong for correctly specced 260 Rem barrels.

 

[Woodsloafer]

But they don’t use the same twist rate, and factory loads don’t use the same bullets.

“If we changed the 260 Rem design outside of it’s SAAMI spec, then it would be the same as 6.5 CM”

That’s a dishonest comparison. Again, 260 Rem in SAAMI spec cannot stabilize the high BC bullets and in factory loads available in stores you cannot get 260 Rem with the high BC bullets.

Yes, reloaders or people exclusively buying from boutique companies, using custom twist barrels, can do what 6.5 CM does and maybe better in a mid or long action.

But that’s not the vast majority of people buying the cartridges. And that’s why 260 lost in the 6.5 short action race.

Face it, 260 Rem was not designed for the high BC bullets. It was not released with them as factory loads, and its SAAMI spec confirms it. Sure, you can make it work with custom work on the users end. But that’s not what wins the consumer cartridge market. It’s not just Hornady being better at marketing, it’s them putting out a product that was designed more for what people were gravitating towards.

Sure, maybe 6.5 CM is barely different from 260 Rem. But it’s different enough.

As for Hornady wanting to sell their ammo, that doesn’t make any sense. They could just as easily have made 260 Rem loads. If 260 Rem got popular, they’d still sell tons of 260 Rem with Hornady bullets.

I said an article explains why some longer bullets are not used, I never said longer bullets dont work. Again, high level article that doesn't cover every grey area and it was focused more on factory ammo.

It was just one article to provide a high level overview. That is it. No need to obsess over it.

Keep in mind, the article wasn't wrong, since most of those bullets are not used in easily obtained, or cheap, commercial ammo.

You guys are hilarious, yup, there is nothing else like the 6.5 Creedmoor in the world of rifles/cartridges, all other cartridges of that caliber are shit, it will kill everything farther and better, and shoot tighter groups than anything else at 1000 yards.

 

[PappyM3]

You guys are hilarious, yup, there is nothing else like the 6.5 Creedmoor in the world of rifles/cartridges, all other cartridges of that caliber are shit, it will kill everything farther and better, and shoot tighter groups than anything else at 1000 yards.

When did we say any of that? You’ve got some intense animosity/bias.

We’re saying 260 Rem was not designed for the bullets people were gravitating to. And it wasn’t, factually.

You’re trying to say if you modify 260 Rem to be outside its spec, then it’s just as good as 6.5 CM. Yeah, sure, but then it’s no longer 260 Rem. Most people don’t like fiddle-f***ing with things and want a turn key solution. That’s why 6.5 CM became more popular.

I’ve got no hard feelings against 260 Rem. It just wasn’t what most people wanted. You need to accept that,

 

[Broc]

You guys are hilarious, yup, there is nothing else like the 6.5 Creedmoor in the world of rifles/cartridges, all other cartridges of that caliber are shit, it will kill everything farther and better, and shoot tighter groups than anything else at 1000 yards.

No one ever said that.

Given your hatred for 6.5cm, I think maybe it is time for you to show us on the doll where the 6.5 touched you.

 

[Woodsloafer]

When did we say any of that? You’ve got some intense animosity/bias.

We’re saying 260 Rem was not designed for the bullets people were gravitating to. And it wasn’t, factually.

You’re trying to say if you modify 260 Rem to be outside its spec, then it’s just as good as 6.5 CM. Yeah, sure, but then it’s no longer 260 Rem. Most people don’t like fiddle-f***ing with things and want a turn key solution. That’s why 6.5 CM became more popular.

I’ve got no hard feelings against 260 Rem. It just wasn’t what most people wanted. You need to accept that,

No one ever said that.

Given your hatred for 6.5cm, I think maybe it is time for you to show us on the doll where the 6.5 touched you.

View attachment 785831

I'm done, I have wasted enough of my time here, enjoy your Creedmoors gentlemen.

 

[Broc]

I'm done, I have wasted enough of my time here, enjoy your Creedmoors gentlemen.

Bye.

We will definitely continue to enjoy its superiority over 260.

 

[AJK129]

6.5s so good people come in here, get mad at it, and leave.

No other caliber has that kind of power

 

[Mesatchornug]

Barely made it past a minute.

Rumors of 6.5 Manbun's demise are greatly exaggerated.

I suppose I should've included or

TL;DR: your read and his are basically the same. I just wanted to

 

[Mountain]

260 was behind the times. It wasn’t going to succeed, even with better marketing. It couldn’t handle as long/high BC bullets, which became all the rage for their efficiency.



Yeah, an assortment of specialty hunting cartridges that can’t fit into a gas gun’s magazine aren’t going to sway the 6.5 CM’s popularity much.

Edit: but I still like Ron Spomer. I’d have a beer around a campfire with him.

I like Spomer as well. Just not a fan of this particular video.