Hey everyone, I need some advise. I am a new shooter and I just joined Westford Sportsmans club this week. I went shooting there last night and started off with my ruger mkIII 22. All my shots for the most part hit black. Then I took out the Ruger SR9 and it was like I cound not shoot at all. I was luck to hit paper. It made me not want to shoot the gun. Is this a normal bump in the road for the learning curve? I have an m&p on reserve at a gun shop and I am thinking about cancelling my order. Any advise would be great.
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1st time shooting 9mm advise needed
- Thread starter JOHNNY P
- Start date
A lot of new shooters I have seen tend to shoot low. I don't know if this is a flinch of sorts until they get used to the larger recoil compared to a .22 or what.
Move the target as close as you can and find the paper, then work your way to the black. Once you can hit that at a short distance more it out further.
Move the target as close as you can and find the paper, then work your way to the black. Once you can hit that at a short distance more it out further.
Show up on a Sunday after 1PM at Westford (maybe not Easter Sunday however) and look for Jim Conway on the outdoor pistol range. He should be able to analyze your problem and set you on the right track.
BTW, don't quit after 1 bad experience.
Yes, it's normal when changing calibers - hell it's normal changing guns. They all shoot/feel a little different and require getting used to it. If you're shooting low - especially if your 1st couple of shots are good - you probably are flinching. Relax and shake it off between mags. Practice dry-firing at home to build muscle memory w/o the 'bang' to distract you.
Bob J
NES Member
You might be flinching in anticipation of the shot.....
Focus on slowly and steadily pulling the trigger back until it goes off while carefully maintaining your sight alignment.... Ideally it should surprise you...
Focus on slowly and steadily pulling the trigger back until it goes off while carefully maintaining your sight alignment.... Ideally it should surprise you...
pj150
NES Member
I second that. I'm normally pretty good when it comes to shooting 9mm. I've shot Glocks, S&W autos and Walthers in 9mm. At 50ft I can keep moist of my shots in the black with a few fliers but still hitting paper.
I tried out my cousin's 9mm PPS and missed the paper entirely. Moved it towards me at 20 ft and still could not hit the paper. It was not without some kentucky windage I was able to put some shots on paper but it was still difficult. I still can't shoot for crap with that gun.
That's a good idea, but don't do it at the WSC indoor range. All targets must be placed at the backstop (50'). Get over to the outdoor range and setup a target at a shorter distance and work your way up. Better yet stop by on a Sunday afternoon and have Jim Conway spend a little time with you. He'll get you squared away.
Part of it may be the trigger, how's the SR9? You'll need/want a trigger job on the M&P, I'm not sure about the SR9.
Another tip I've heard is to double up on the ear protection until you are comfortable shooting the 9mm. Disposable ear plugs + over the ear protection. Each is likely at least -20db on its own. It muffles the "boom" even further so your brain can focus more on the the mechanics.
Here's my tip for learning how to develop some confidence shooting a bigger gun (than a .22):
Start off very close to the target. Get a target that has rows of small dots, and try standing so that your muzzle is about 2 feet from the target. Put two bullets in one hole on each spot. When you get confident that you can do that, back up a step or two, and do that some more.
For the first 300 or so rounds, maybe less depending on how fast a learner you are, try to stay within a total distance of about 15 feet from the target. Pistol shooting isn't like long range rifle shooting.
It's important to remember that something like 90+% of all police shoot outs are 15 feet and less!!! Most of the bad guys you will need to shoot would be that close also.
So, lose the long distance mentality, get up close and personal with your paper targets.
Also, you need to work on developing a proper grip for holding the gun.
Additionally, a technique like "trigger reset" will help hold the gun very steady while you shoot.
Sign up for some training, and read some books on the subject.
You'll be "point shooting" accurately at 40 feet before you know it!
Start off very close to the target. Get a target that has rows of small dots, and try standing so that your muzzle is about 2 feet from the target. Put two bullets in one hole on each spot. When you get confident that you can do that, back up a step or two, and do that some more.
For the first 300 or so rounds, maybe less depending on how fast a learner you are, try to stay within a total distance of about 15 feet from the target. Pistol shooting isn't like long range rifle shooting.
It's important to remember that something like 90+% of all police shoot outs are 15 feet and less!!! Most of the bad guys you will need to shoot would be that close also.
So, lose the long distance mentality, get up close and personal with your paper targets.
Also, you need to work on developing a proper grip for holding the gun.
Additionally, a technique like "trigger reset" will help hold the gun very steady while you shoot.
Sign up for some training, and read some books on the subject.
You'll be "point shooting" accurately at 40 feet before you know it!
Try Some Snap Caps
I think Jim Conway is showing up at 2 pm now on Sundays.
Also, if you want to see what you're doing mix in some snap caps. Jim had a snap cap drill on here a while ago. Basically, load your magazine with your eyes closed, mixing in a few snap caps.
You won't know until you pull the trigger if the gun goes bang. When you 'fire' the snap cap you'll see what you're doing with your pistol (flinching).
I think Jim Conway is showing up at 2 pm now on Sundays.
Also, if you want to see what you're doing mix in some snap caps. Jim had a snap cap drill on here a while ago. Basically, load your magazine with your eyes closed, mixing in a few snap caps.
You won't know until you pull the trigger if the gun goes bang. When you 'fire' the snap cap you'll see what you're doing with your pistol (flinching).
Johnny,
The reason why your shots are missing the target is because at some point in during the firing sequence, muscles in your hand are contracting and pulling the muzzle off target. When you fire a shot, you want both your hands to be completely relaxed. The only muscle that should be contracting is your trigger finger.
Instead, one of the following is probably happening:
You're gripping too tightly with your right or left hand
You're flexing your fingers
You're jerking the trigger
You're pulling the trigger back at an angle
You're compensating for recoil
You're anticipating the trigger break
Or it could be a combination of the above. It would be easier to identify if you could tell us where the shots are going.
The reason why you shoot well with the Mk III and so poorly with the 9mm is the difference in recoil. You're anticipating the recoil, and it's making you flinch, jerk, buck or somehow break the rhythm of your firing sequence. It happens to everyone when they first learn to shoot. Here's what you need to do:
First, learn to let the gun catch you by surprise. I know this sounds silly, but the key to a good trigger squeeze is that it should surprise you when the trigger breaks. When squeezing the trigger, many new shooters will decide that they want to shoot NOW, and depress the trigger in one swift moment. That's wrong. What you want to do is SQUEEZE the trigger straight back into you, applying pressure incrementally until <CLICK> the trigger breaks and the gun goes bang.
The second thing you need to do is learn to completely relax your hand when you hold the gun. Try an exercise - touch the top of your thumb nail with the pad of your index finger (same hand). Press down on your thumb nail. Notice how your middle and index fingers also move? When you squeeze the trigger, those fingers are squeezing the grip, which is throwing off your aim. Be mindful of this, and try to keep those fingers as relaxed as possible (it takes practice to break that reflex). You really only need to hold the gun firmly enough to keep it from falling out of your hands; any more pressure than that is unnecessary and will affect your aim.
The best thing you can do for yourself is take Len's advice and go meet up with Jim Conway. I'd shoot him a PM first to let him know you'll be there. Jim's tutelage is a HUGE perk of having a WSC membership.
Second, dry fire, dry fire, dry fire. You should be dry firing 10 times at home for every shot you take at the range. When you dry fire, keep your eyes focused on the front sight. It should not move when the trigger breaks. When you're at the range, dry fire before each magazine, and don't load a magazine until you can dry fire without moving your front sight.
Third, run the ball and dummy drill. Buy some dummy rounds (I like ST Action Pro) and mix them in with your range ammo. Have a buddy load your magazines, or load them without looking so you don't know where the dummy rounds are. Shoot as you normally would (you should be focusing on the front sight normally) and be mindful of what happens when you hit a dummy round. The front sight shouldn't move. If it does, go back to dry firing until it doesn't move. Rinse and repeat.
And keep shooting your Mk III - that's great (cheap) training.
Report back here and let us know of your progress.
The reason why your shots are missing the target is because at some point in during the firing sequence, muscles in your hand are contracting and pulling the muzzle off target. When you fire a shot, you want both your hands to be completely relaxed. The only muscle that should be contracting is your trigger finger.
Instead, one of the following is probably happening:
You're gripping too tightly with your right or left hand
You're flexing your fingers
You're jerking the trigger
You're pulling the trigger back at an angle
You're compensating for recoil
You're anticipating the trigger break
Or it could be a combination of the above. It would be easier to identify if you could tell us where the shots are going.
The reason why you shoot well with the Mk III and so poorly with the 9mm is the difference in recoil. You're anticipating the recoil, and it's making you flinch, jerk, buck or somehow break the rhythm of your firing sequence. It happens to everyone when they first learn to shoot. Here's what you need to do:
First, learn to let the gun catch you by surprise. I know this sounds silly, but the key to a good trigger squeeze is that it should surprise you when the trigger breaks. When squeezing the trigger, many new shooters will decide that they want to shoot NOW, and depress the trigger in one swift moment. That's wrong. What you want to do is SQUEEZE the trigger straight back into you, applying pressure incrementally until <CLICK> the trigger breaks and the gun goes bang.
The second thing you need to do is learn to completely relax your hand when you hold the gun. Try an exercise - touch the top of your thumb nail with the pad of your index finger (same hand). Press down on your thumb nail. Notice how your middle and index fingers also move? When you squeeze the trigger, those fingers are squeezing the grip, which is throwing off your aim. Be mindful of this, and try to keep those fingers as relaxed as possible (it takes practice to break that reflex). You really only need to hold the gun firmly enough to keep it from falling out of your hands; any more pressure than that is unnecessary and will affect your aim.
The best thing you can do for yourself is take Len's advice and go meet up with Jim Conway. I'd shoot him a PM first to let him know you'll be there. Jim's tutelage is a HUGE perk of having a WSC membership.
Second, dry fire, dry fire, dry fire. You should be dry firing 10 times at home for every shot you take at the range. When you dry fire, keep your eyes focused on the front sight. It should not move when the trigger breaks. When you're at the range, dry fire before each magazine, and don't load a magazine until you can dry fire without moving your front sight.
Third, run the ball and dummy drill. Buy some dummy rounds (I like ST Action Pro) and mix them in with your range ammo. Have a buddy load your magazines, or load them without looking so you don't know where the dummy rounds are. Shoot as you normally would (you should be focusing on the front sight normally) and be mindful of what happens when you hit a dummy round. The front sight shouldn't move. If it does, go back to dry firing until it doesn't move. Rinse and repeat.
And keep shooting your Mk III - that's great (cheap) training.
Report back here and let us know of your progress.
I'm a member of WSC also. Welcome!
Don't feel bad about practicing the MKIII a lot. It is good practice. I put a few thousand rounds through mine over many visits before switching back to 9mm, then I was much better with the 9mm.
I used to suck at my 9mm. What was going on was that I somehow got this idea in my mind that I had to compensate for the recoil, as if I had to on purposely put in effort to hold the muzzle down at the moment it fired. As it turns out, there is no need to do that... the bullet will still go where the barrel is pointed regardless of the recoil that happens after the bullet leaves the barrel. Keep front sight in focus and on the target continuously, squeeze trigger tighter and tighter, until you are surprised that it fires. DO NOT worry about recoil at all... let the recoil do its thing and make the muzzle move upward, it is harmless. It'll take practice to train your mind to not care about the recoil.
And another vote for Jim... he can explain things really well.
Don't feel bad about practicing the MKIII a lot. It is good practice. I put a few thousand rounds through mine over many visits before switching back to 9mm, then I was much better with the 9mm.
I used to suck at my 9mm. What was going on was that I somehow got this idea in my mind that I had to compensate for the recoil, as if I had to on purposely put in effort to hold the muzzle down at the moment it fired. As it turns out, there is no need to do that... the bullet will still go where the barrel is pointed regardless of the recoil that happens after the bullet leaves the barrel. Keep front sight in focus and on the target continuously, squeeze trigger tighter and tighter, until you are surprised that it fires. DO NOT worry about recoil at all... let the recoil do its thing and make the muzzle move upward, it is harmless. It'll take practice to train your mind to not care about the recoil.
And another vote for Jim... he can explain things really well.
JimConway
Instructor
I will be at the WSC range on Sunday. From 11:00 AM until 1:00 PM, we will be doing a minor range clean up and then we will shoot starting at 1:00 PM
For those of you that I have been able to help, it is pay back time. Please come down and help us clean the place up
For those of you that I have been able to help, it is pay back time. Please come down and help us clean the place up
Jim, I'd love to help out but I'll be out of town (Easter Sunday).
Jim, there's a 50/50 chance that I will have to work (being the last Sunday before the tax deadline), but if I don't have to, I'd love to come up and help out.
I'm going to volunteer Shortey as well, so long as she doesn't have to work either.
I don't think you are too far from Harvard Sportsmen's Club so come over there Saturday around 2:00 and I'll go over the whole shebang with you. Look for the Toyota Tundra/listen for all the noise and you would have found me.
Thanks for all the responses, I am dumping the Ruger SR9 tonight. I a mtaking it back to AG guns in lowell to see what they can give me for it. It's been shot twice. Hopefully I will also be able to cancel the order for the S&W mp9mm also. I think I would rather get a rifle.
Maybe something like an AR or AK will fit the bill?
May I suggest selling it on NES instead? A private sale will get you much more for a gun than any dealer would (and I like AG Guns). Then you'll have more to spend on another gun.
I'd also suggest not giving up so soon. You can learn it. But, good idea to not get the M&P yet if you aren't comfortable with your ability to learn the 9mm well.
J
Jose
I disagree. You should not give up that easily. 9 mm Luger is one of the most shooter-friendly cartridges out there. If you cannot handle one without flinching, what makes you think you will be able to handle a centerfire rifle which, regardless of caliber, has a significantly higher level of recoil and noise than any handgun?
I've seen your kind, always shopping for the magic gun. It doesn't work that way. The only way to master shooting is to put in the work.
If you are dead raw new, you need professional training.
I ended up keeping the SR9 because you never get your money back on a trade and I could not cancel the m&p as it was a special order. I guess I am stuck at this point. I should have taken my time and tried stuff out before going out and buying everything that looked nice. Live and learn.
J
Jose
I'm pretty sure there is nothing wrong with the SR9. The SR9, in fact, is a very natural pointing pistol.
I'm pretty sure the problem lies in your technique. Spend your money on training. There are no magic guns and no shortcuts.
I know I sound like a jerk but I am trying to save you money and frustration. You can listen to those with more experience or you can wander around on your own.
Your choice.
Stick with the SR9. As Jose said, there is no magic gun. I have 3 completely different full-sized 9mm pistols and I can shoot them all accurately, and can pick up someone else's gun at the range that I have never tried before, and do fine with it. Its not the gun... its training and practice. And I'm still a relative newbie.
When at the range, have someone else there (like Jim) who has more experience fire a few rounds, to convince yourself that it can be shot accurately (and to confirm there is nothing bad with the trigger, etc.)
When at the range, have someone else there (like Jim) who has more experience fire a few rounds, to convince yourself that it can be shot accurately (and to confirm there is nothing bad with the trigger, etc.)
