.223 crimping dies question

[timbo]

So, I've been doing some research in regards to a previous thread I started a week or two back

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/118380-Failing-to-feed-older-reloads...

I'm starting to think that the mouth has been flared too much and they are catching on the ramp and that I need to crimp them down somehow...It's been so darned long since I've reloaded rifle cartridges...

several questions...

Does the RCBS .223 (or any rifle for that matter) seating die perform any kind of crimp as the bullet it set? I don't think it does but want to make sure.

I'm heading up to the KTP and Cabelas Monday (I have the day off ) and want to pick up either the Lee factory crimp or maybe some kind of "taper" crimp die. I use a slight taper crimp on my .45acp loads to help a bit with feeding.

Is the Lee die a taper or roll crimp? I can't seem to find an answer.

 

[Fixxah]

If you chamfered and beveled the casemouth I don't see where a crimp will make enough of a difference. I have a Lee FCD you can try if you want to save some $ in case it fails to do what you want. NIB, I don't crimp my ammo.

 

[Gammon]

My 223 reloading dies do not flare the case mouth. My RCBS power trimmer trims , deburrs, and chamfers the case mouth. This allows the bullet to enter the case at the seating station (Dillon 550) without a flare. Using this system no crimp is necessary. I have also read that no crimp should be used unless the bullet has a cannelure. The cannelure gives the brass somewhere to go when crimp is applied. Crimping without a cannelure can deform the bullet.

 

[m4bushy]

I'm starting to think that the mouth has been flared too much and they are catching on the ramp and that I need to crimp them down somehow...It's been so darned long since I've reloaded rifle cartridges...

no dies that i know of flare 223 necks.

Does the RCBS .223 (or any rifle for that matter) seating die perform any kind of crimp as the bullet it set? I don't think it does but want to make sure.

yes the rcbs dies will crimp and seat if it is correctly set. I don't like to crimp and seat in the same station. If i do crimp 223 i have another seating die with the seating post removed to crimp only in the last station.

 

[DukeInFlorida]

Said another way: Full length rifle (necked) reloading dies DO NOT FLARE case mouths.

Rather, they properly size the case mouth, controlling ID and OD, and then also set the neck taper (shoulder) back to where it's supposed to be.

Bottom line: You gotta be doing something horribly wrong to messing up your brass while full length resizing.

 

[RKG]

Said another way: Full length rifle (necked) reloading dies DO NOT FLARE case mouths. . . .

To make this statement correct, add the qualifier: "for bottleneck cartridges."

Said another way: . . .

Rather, they properly size the case mouth, controlling ID and OD, and then also set the neck taper (shoulder) back to where it's supposed to be.

Actually, neck OD is first "controlled" by the sizer die (often excessively) and then neck ID is set by the expander button. Overly thick neck walls are not "controlled" once the case has passed the expander button.

However, Duke's underlying point is correct: there is no "flare" created in bottleneck cases by the typical three-die reloading die set. To hypothesize a feeding issue caused by a neck dimension issue, I think you'd have to hypothesize a case that had been fired so many times that it had been trimmed three or four times without reaming out the excess brass that had migrated into the neck. In my experience, you seldom could reload a 5.56 case that many times before the necks began to split.

 

[timbo]

Well, you guys have given me food for thought... I have to head up to Cabelas Monday anyway (I have to return something I bought from them recently that was the wrong item) and I am going to at least pick up a new bullet puller.

My problem is that really the only thing other than 223 I've ever reloaded was pistol brass and all of that is straight walled brass (45acp, 38sp, 357mag). When I reload that, I apply a slight taper crimp, especially to the 45, as I found it helps the rounds feed better from the magazine.

I think what I'll do is break down the offending rounds I have, clean, full length resize, trim the brass and reload them and see what happens. If they are still are having the failure to feed problem, maybe I could bother one of the local guys on here to get together over a cup of coffee some Saturday morning and see if we can figure out the error of my ways. I'm all about learning from my mistakes and I don't have a problem with someone showing me if it comes to that.

 

[DukeInFlorida]

Which is exactly what I suggested above.

"standard" necked rifle bullet seating/crimping dies have a feature built into them which essentially ROLL CRIMPS the end of the brass into the cannelure. However, that causes more problems than anything, and I always tell student to NOT try and crimp necked rifle brass. No need to. You'll only ruin the case where the shoulder meets full body size. I know I have posted those pictures before. So, use that die for only bullet seating, and do not make the further adjustment to crimp.

The Lee "Factory Crimp Dies" are a three segmented affair, and do something more like a taper crimp using the three segments of the collet. Not necessary to do even that crimp, but if you are inclined, the Lee set is a good one. Some of their rifle die sets come with that die in the box.

.38 special and 357 mag should normally (lead bullets) be roll crimped, not taper crimped. I have roll crimped plated .38 DEWC's and HEWC's successfully. The crimping feature built into standard bullet seating/crimping dies are designed so that they are typical for that case. If you follow what I mean.

Well, you guys have given me food for thought... I have to head up to Cabelas Monday anyway (I have to return something I bought from them recently that was the wrong item) and I am going to at least pick up a new bullet puller.

My problem is that really the only thing other than 223 I've ever reloaded was pistol brass and all of that is straight walled brass (45acp, 38sp, 357mag). When I reload that, I apply a slight taper crimp, especially to the 45, as I found it helps the rounds feed better from the magazine.

I think what I'll do is break down the offending rounds I have, clean, full length resize, trim the brass and reload them and see what happens. If they are still are having the failure to feed problem, maybe I could bother one of the local guys on here to get together over a cup of coffee some Saturday morning and see if we can figure out the error of my ways. I'm all about learning from my mistakes and I don't have a problem with someone showing me if it comes to that.

 

[RKG]

I agree with Duke's most recent. While distant diagnoses are worth what you pay for them, my guess as to the OP's problems are:

1) Unnecessary crimp.
2) Excessively long case.
3) Excessively long COAL.
4) Inadequately sized neck and shoulder area.

I have never crimped 55-grain FMJs in 5.56 rounds, whether nor not the slugs have a cannelure.

 

[timbo]

Which is exactly what I suggested above.

"standard" necked rifle bullet seating/crimping dies have a feature built into them which essentially ROLL CRIMPS the end of the brass into the cannelure. However, that causes more problems than anything, and I always tell student to NOT try and crimp necked rifle brass. No need to. You'll only ruin the case where the shoulder meets full body size. I know I have posted those pictures before. So, use that die for only bullet seating, and do not make the further adjustment to crimp.

The Lee "Factory Crimp Dies" are a three segmented affair, and do something more like a taper crimp using the three segments of the collet. Not necessary to do even that crimp, but if you are inclined, the Lee set is a good one. Some of their rifle die sets come with that die in the box.

.38 special and 357 mag should normally (lead bullets) be roll crimped, not taper crimped. I have roll crimped plated .38 DEWC's and HEWC's successfully. The crimping feature built into standard bullet seating/crimping dies are designed so that they are typical for that case. If you follow what I mean.

Thanks for your help all...I went over to Rileys this afternoon and picked up a puller...I'll break them down tomorrow and see what happens. I'll let you all know how I make out.