Air Marshals -- Something to think about besides the TSA...

[Masterguns]

If there were Air Marshals on those 4 planes, do you think they'd have been effective in intervening and preventing the outcome we saw?

(I think we're on the same page, just reading it differently)

it absolutely would of... but then again like i said if 911 had already happened at that point the mob would of rushed a couple of suicidal toolbags holding box cutters and taken a few slashes or stab wounds because they would of KNOWN that if they didn't they were all going to die

 

[AntiHippie]

I agree completely.

Speaking of TSA and Air Marshal's - I was speaking to a former Air Marshal, who has since moved on to another agency, and is still actively teaching for another (and did have an impressive range of knowledge to draw from in that training), was talking about being held up from boarding a flight on the job, more than once, because of his 'frequent flight travel history' courtesy of TSA. From what I've heard from other colleagues that have gone to the FAM program, then left, they all left because of hassles like this and the others mentioned in this thread.

If I could have any less faith in TSA, I would.

 

[FreeWillie]

Huh??

Who was the brilliant person that said a 1 inch hole at 14 psi cabin pressure and cruising altitude wouldn't turn into a 10 foot hole? Haven't you ever wondered why when there is a problem on the flight, the first order of business to to get under 10,000 and depressurize to 1 psi?

That's a human limitation not an airframe limitation. Modern aircraft can take numerous "pinhole" breeches and fly just fine. Humans need O2 and at altitude it's diminished. Hence, we have emergency decent procedures. It has nothing to do with airframe integrity and everything to do with preservation of life.

Bottom line here, if you shoot a hole through the skin at cruising altitude, you will cause serious problems for that flight if not bring it down entirely. Never you mind that it's actually my job to figure out stuff like this.

You're wrong! I've got 12000 hours of flying time under my belt and have had two RD's and the ONLY reason I descended was to preserve life. At no time was the airframe in jeopardy. I also have "a few" hours of combat time where there were more than "a few" holes put in my airplane at no time did I have to eject due to the fact that the airframe was going to disintegrate around me.

 

[TheWookie]

How many bullets has the Secret Service stopped for the president? How much does that cost? FAM's are not beat cops. They have a specialized role which doesn't result in many arrests. Let's keep it real -- How about a comparison with other countries Air Marshal programs? How many arrests have say the Chinese, Israeli, or Russian Air Marshal Services made? FAM's have a specialized law enforcement job. You can't judge success on number of arrests.

The two guys I know who work on a dedicated VIPR Team have more than four arrests. Just because a FAM arrests someone, doesn't make it headline news.

And you guys know more than just FAM's fly while packing? I find it funny that people think cause they see a guy with a holster that he/she is a FAM. I mean did you ask them, or just assume? Some pretty wild speculation.

The purpose of the FAM program is not to result in arrests. Why not decide whether the cost of the reinforced cockpit doors is justified by the number of airline accidents which they have prevented?

The FAM program is meant as a deterent. It may or may not be worthwhile, but lets deal with reality.

 

[HooVooLoo]

Huh??

Who was the brilliant person that said a 1 inch hole at 14 psi cabin pressure and cruising altitude wouldn't turn into a 10 foot hole? Haven't you ever wondered why when there is a problem on the flight, the first order of business to to get under 10,000 and depressurize to 1 psi?

Bottom line here, if you shoot a hole through the skin at cruising altitude, you will cause serious problems for that flight if not bring it down entirely. Never you mind that it's actually my job to figure out stuff like this.

Depressurize the plane to 1 PSI? That would be a neat trick to pull off in an aircraft with a hole in the fuselage (so depressurization attempts would be unnecessary anyway) and no vacuum pumps inside. Not to mention that that would kill everyone onboard, oxygen-supply notwithstanding.

Study Dalton's Law and you'll eventually get a raise at your "job where you have to actually figure out stuff like this."

 

[EOD]

Depressurize the plane to 1 PSI? That would be a neat trick to pull off in an aircraft with a hole in the fuselage (so depressurization attempts would be unnecessary anyway) and no vacuum pumps inside. Not to mention that that would kill everyone onboard, oxygen-supply notwithstanding.

Study Dalton's Law and you'll eventually get a raise at your "job where you have to actually figure out stuff like this."

Wow... Thank you for taking what I wrote entirely out of context. The decend to under 10,000 feet in a perfect world would happen before a FAM would have to discharge his/her weapon. Everything you said is entirely after the fact and not what I was referring to.

 

[EOD]

I also have "a few" hours of combat time where there were more than "a few" holes put in my airplane at no time did I have to eject due to the fact that the airframe was going to disintegrate around me.

How many hours did you spend with holes through your pressurized cockpit? The rest of a combat airframe is not pressurized. Passenger compartments of commercial aircraft are.

 

[P-14]

law dawg is a Federal Air Marshal, but he hasn't posted here in a few months.

He helped me with info on the FAM Tactical Quals for an IDPA match that I ran in April of 2008. He knew his stuff and kept physically fit (see here)

 

[TheWookie]

Just one more thing,,, these guys are also using frangible ammo. So even though one or two bullet holes won't take town a commercial airliner; it probably won't come to that if shots are fire becasue of the ammo they use.

 

[TimMcG74]

 

[TheRoland]

Like Wookie and others have said, arrests is not an appropriate metric here.

Just one more thing,,, these guys are also using frangible ammo. So even though one or two bullet holes won't take town a commercial airliner; it probably won't come to that if shots are fire becasue of the ammo they use.

I don't believe this is the case anymore, due to such ammo not passing modern standards of lethality.

How many hours did you spend with holes through your pressurized cockpit? The rest of a combat airframe is not pressurized. Passenger compartments of commercial aircraft are.

Have you tested or run simulations on this? A pressurized passenger compartment should not lose structural integrity merely by being holed. I believe a popular TV show was unable to damage the structure whatsoever given a shotgun and buckshot.

 

[JackDaniels]

Ever see an air marshal on a flight? Last summer I boarded a plane to find a mid 30's guy wearing a cheap blazer on a day with the temps in the 90's already sitting in the aisle seat. He proceeded to squirm and tug on his lapel. He was a bit overweight and the jacket was tight, when he got up to use the restroom, I caught a flash of a holster. It was like they called Central Casting and said "get me a typical air marshal, a chubby white guy with short hair and a cheap suit jacket".

At least dress these guys like passengers in 2011, not the mid 70's.

To be honest, you kind of sound like you're full of shit. I'm close friends with an air marshall, they use IWB holsters, and they wear casual clothing like any other passenger.

 

[RKG]

Actually, the primary function of the Air Marshals (collectively) is a deterrent. The ideal statistic would be zero arrests, a sign that the deterrent is working.

 

[AntiHippie]

Not that I doubt anyone, but is there anything to substantiate deterrence being their primary purpose? I had thought - admittedly, based only on my own assumptions - that their primary purpose was intervention if and as necessary.

 

[JackDaniels]

Not that I doubt anyone, but is there anything to substantiate deterrence being their primary purpose? I had thought - admittedly, based only on my own assumptions - that their primary purpose was intervention if and as necessary.

If intervention was their primary purpose they'd be on every plane. They're not. They're on some planes mostly at random. They're a deterrent. Kind of like speed traps. If speed traps were a form of intervention, there would be cops on every street. But, they're a deterrent. You don't really know when one is on the street, so you might not want to commit a violation on that street. Make sense?

 

[Realtor MA]

Just because you see a holster on a plane it doesn't mean the guy is a FAM. Any federally sworn LEO can get the Captain's permission to ccw.

ETA I'm speaking about domestic flights of course.

 

[terraformer]

Just one more thing,,, these guys are also using frangible ammo. So even though one or two bullet holes won't take town a commercial airliner; it probably won't come to that if shots are fire becasue of the ammo they use.

Their frangible use has changed over time. I am not sure they are using it any longer.

 

[terraformer]

To be honest, you kind of sound like you're full of shit. I'm close friends with an air marshall, they use IWB holsters, and they wear casual clothing like any other passenger.

No, he's not FOS. He saw someone. It may not have been a FAM. There is a difference.

 

[Lamina]

how big is the FAM budget? how much of it is just for salary/benefits?

how about this... disband the FAM's and instead use just what the budget would have been for their pay and bennies and run classes and certifications for civvies to be allowed to carry on planes. You could force the class to be taken once a year, mandate requalification every 3 months and you'd still save money and have more people armed flying.

all the details about what they'd carry and how could be hammered out.

there's really no downsides. Of course, this would be returning power to the people, so the statists here and other places would never go for it.

 

[jasons]

Ever see an air marshal on a flight? Last summer I boarded a plane to find a mid 30's guy wearing a cheap blazer on a day with the temps in the 90's already sitting in the aisle seat. He proceeded to squirm and tug on his lapel. He was a bit overweight and the jacket was tight, when he got up to use the restroom, I caught a flash of a holster. It was like they called Central Casting and said "get me a typical air marshal, a chubby white guy with short hair and a cheap suit jacket".

At least dress these guys like passengers in 2011, not the mid 70's.

That was me. The holster was just my Blackberry. I'm pissed that you didn't like my blazer - it cost me like $50 bucks at Men's Warehouse.

 

[KMaurer]

I would respectfully disagree. There is little doubt (especially here) that TSA's only practical function is security theater. The FAM's, on the other hand, serve the function of (if the situation were to occur) actually intervening with, and hopefully resolving, an incident/attempt/whatever. Enormous difference. Illusory prevention vs. practical, actual intervention.

Well, once you've severely hobbled the first line of defense, I suppose it might make sense to put in some sort of alternative, no matter how ineffective it might be. Once upon a time, back in the days when America was a free country, any adult was free to bring rifles, shotguns, handguns and ammunition on any commercial airliner. That included not only passengers, but cabin crew as well. Over the years there was not a single reported problem of any kind resulting from this policy, and several documented instances where it helped solve potential problems. Then the government decided that the little people (i.e., anyone not reporting directly to them) couldn't be trusted. The result has been a long string of hijackings, the 9/11 disaster, federal air marshals, and the TSA entertainment network. In theory FAMs might serve a more useful function that the TSA, so far (thankfully) there's been nothing more to show than a few load mouths and drunks dealt with.

Ken

 

[JackDaniels]

No, he's not FOS. He saw someone. It may not have been a FAM. There is a difference.

I'm pretty sure you should be telling this to the guy who suggested he saw a FAM, not me.

 

[Gibbs]

...Keep the Air Marshals, Get rid of TSA.

The Federal Air Marshal Service is an entity within TSA.

A fairly recent report on FAMS core mission and workplace issues published by the GAO is linked here for those who want more background.

 

[GSG]

You can argue that the FAM system isn't worth the money it costs. But to argue that it isn't working because they aren't arresting people simply isn't logical. Air security uses a layered defense. If the inner layers are being used all the time, that means that the outer layers are broken.

Exactly.

I have a friend in town who was a FAM. One of the reasons he left was what you have mentioned. Many of the FAMs wanted to dress less conspicuously but their requests were not granted. He now seems much happier in a physical labor job where he is home with his family every night.

The attire policy has changed. A lot of guys who do it stop because of the toll the schedule takes on their personal life.

I don't believe this is the case anymore, due to such ammo not passing modern standards of lethality.

You're right, but I think it has more to do with ammo fads than it has to do with actual lethality.

Just because you see a holster on a plane it doesn't mean the guy is a FAM. Any federally sworn LEO can get the Captain's permission to ccw.

Correct, but they don't have to be a fed, others can carry on board as well.

Once upon a time, back in the days when America was a free country, any adult was free to bring rifles, shotguns, handguns and ammunition on any commercial airliner. That included not only passengers, but cabin crew as well. Over the years there was not a single reported problem of any kind resulting from this policy, and several documented instances where it helped solve potential problems.

I'd be very interested to read about any of those. Although that policy may have helped out DB Cooper and other hijackers board with their handguns.

 

[FreeWillie]

How many hours did you spend with holes through your pressurized cockpit? The rest of a combat airframe is not pressurized. Passenger compartments of commercial aircraft are.

The 2 RD's I referenced were in Lear Jets. One at FL 410 and one at FL 350. Both were the result of passenger windows cracking. At no time did the airframe disintegrate around me. There was no structural damage to the AC, other than a blown out window. I descended IAW Emergency Decent procedures to below 10000 ft. All was well but noisey.

Who said I didn't have bullet holes through the cockpit? Doesn't matter away, I was sucking on the hose (that's wearing my O2 mask for you non aviators).

If you think that a single bullet hole in the fuselage of a commercial airliner is catastrophic you need to go back to school.

 

[FreeWillie]

I'd be very interested to read about any of those. Although that policy may have helped out DB Cooper and other hijackers board with their handguns.

I can remember boarding a commercial flight out of Shreveport, LA going to San Antonio, TX in the late 60's carrying a sidearm. I believe it was on American Airlines, but I could be wrong. I simply declared that I had a sidearm and got on the airplane. No one seemed to mind. Times have changed.

ETA: I also use to take my .22 rifle to school. We had to put them in the corner of the school room by the door during class. We would go plinking after school.

 

[Garys]

The Federal Air Marshal Service is an entity within TSA.

A fairly recent report on FAMS core mission and workplace issues published by the GAO is linked here for those who want more background.

The FAM existed long before the TSA. It was absorbed into DHS when that boondoggle was created after 9/11. The idea was to promote information sharing and unify response. Or maybe that was the excuse. Either way, TSA could be done away with and FAM moved somewhere else withing DHS. Speaking of the TSA, several airports seem to be exploring the "opt out" option of kicking TSA out of their facilities and replacing them with private companies that meet[STRIKE] the established (by law) security standards[/STRIKE]somewhat vague TSA standards. Seems the airlines and airport administrations have figured out that the TSA is killing the airline industry. As frustration grows, airports consider ditching TSA I guess this is CHANGE, at least I HOPE it is.

 

[walkit]

Oughta just arm/train the pilots, protect the cabins, get rid of marshalls, save the $200 mill per year. Pilots HAVE to be present, and there must be 2, and autopilots DO work. So they can come out and deal with a drunk, real easily, using long nightsticks, if need be. There is no stopping suicide bombers. There are ways to get past even a strip search and no, dogs or mechanical "sniffers" can't detect such, either. I was a dog handler for the Army. I know what dogs can and can't do. 2 such men, or better yet, 2 women, and 2.5 lb total "payload", sitting near a wing, and no plane is going to stay in the sky. So the TSA is just like the military, a very, very expensive unemployment bureau, for people who can't hold down a real job, and 90% of whom don't accomplish a thing. We are invaded by another million illegals per year. In 10 years, the US will be unreconizable.

 

[In God We Trust]

My only problem with air marshals is the expense to the taxpayer. It's fine to say "let the passengers be armed" but I personally don't want armed muslims on the same flight as me. If we could just send all the muslims home, we could eliminate all of these agencies and go back to being American.

I don't think looking at 4 arrests a year and calling FAM ineffective is fair. As yourselves how much $ you have spent on guns, training and ammo over the years and then how many times you have had to actually use a gun in a self defense situation? Does that mean your carry piece is "ineffective"? Yeah it sucks that tax dollars are used for it. I would rather see airliners hire their own private armed security. It might raise the price of the tickets, but you can always choose not to fly.

 

[walkit]

what I spend of my own VOLITION, and what is taken from me, by threat of death or prison, in the form of taxes, have NOTHING in common, dude.