And another one:
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Almost a horrible Father's Day
- Thread starter DukeInFlorida
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+1. Until you get the hang of them, load 1 and make sure you have a nice, firm grip. Also...don't start with one of EC's 1/10 lb .500 rounds...No need to be scare off by these video. Man up, line up and get your chance to get a taste of this beast. I did that (with some help)![[smile]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/001.gif "Smile [smile]")
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If you see what the OP says, the rounds his son was firing were 700 grains. I am betting they were not factory loads.
Scary, glad he's ok.
You cannot buy 700 grain rounds at the store.
There's one guy in Alaska that makes the bullets available, or you can cast your own.
There's one guy in Alaska that makes the bullets available, or you can cast your own.
dustoff22
NES Member
Damn............not pretty. Don't plan on anything beyond my .41 magnums, they're plenty enough for me and anyone else. So glad your boy is OK Duke.
Agree about sharing this video for the benefit of those unaware of what could happen!!!!!
Agree about sharing this video for the benefit of those unaware of what could happen!!!!!
All these guys double tapping on indoor ranges are very lucky they did not kill themselves or bystanders. Ranges are designed for certain angles of shooting. Shooting a .500 hot load into a ceiling that was not designed for it can easily bounce the slug right back at the shooter, or in some other random direciton. There is no guarantee the bullet will continue on away from the shooter.
Big Daddy 45acp
Instructor
Glad everyone is ok.
For those who are still wondering how, here is a short video. Watch the frame recoil in the grip. The shooter thinks he is holding the trigger back.
For those who are still wondering how, here is a short video. Watch the frame recoil in the grip. The shooter thinks he is holding the trigger back.
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![[laugh]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/012.gif "Laugh [laugh]")
not to mention that some of these ranges are in basements of club houses... I would imagine a bullet with that kind of energy could go through to the people above... or am I way off on that thought?
A lot of indoor ranges are in the basement or lower floor of a clubhouse or other building. Most have rules about where/ when you can shoot as a result.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQvtfHJZTUc&feature=youtube_gdata_player
FrugalFannie
NES Member
and I thought Jim was just being stingy loading those rounds 1 at a time for us to try out his 500.![[grin]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/041.gif "Grin [grin]")
actually, I don't think I have ever wanted to shoot it more than once a day. Thanks Jim for looking out for us. And THANKS for sharing that 500!
actually, I don't think I have ever wanted to shoot it more than once a day. Thanks Jim for looking out for us. And THANKS for sharing that 500!
I always share my 500 also. I always only put one round in the cylinder for those people. My son is a good shooter, and figured he would have it under control.
Here's my notion of what happened (after thinking a LOT about it);
1) He didn't have a really tight two handed grip. He's naturally a LEFTY. So, his strong hand is his left hand. He normally shoots "righty"........ So, the gun was in his weak hand. The fact that the gun went LEFT suggests to me that his left hand wasn't a significant part of the grip (I'll have to coach him on that!)
2) He locked his elbows, and not his wrists. The technique for shooting these guns is very different from "normal" shooting. I'll make sure that I give that advice whenever allowing anyone in the future to shoot the gun. Lock your wrists, and allow the gun to rise up at your elbows for better muscle control.
3) He had already shot the gun a few times that day, with those bone jarring 700 grain rounds. I'm sure his hands and wrists were sore. That could have contributed.
4) I usually have some TrailBoss loads on hand, which are very tame and gentle, even at 700 grains for the bullets. Those are about the same amount of felt recoil as a 357 magnum. I'll offer any future shooters the option of which type of round do they want to try, but always one shot at a time.
Here's my notion of what happened (after thinking a LOT about it);
1) He didn't have a really tight two handed grip. He's naturally a LEFTY. So, his strong hand is his left hand. He normally shoots "righty"........ So, the gun was in his weak hand. The fact that the gun went LEFT suggests to me that his left hand wasn't a significant part of the grip (I'll have to coach him on that!)
2) He locked his elbows, and not his wrists. The technique for shooting these guns is very different from "normal" shooting. I'll make sure that I give that advice whenever allowing anyone in the future to shoot the gun. Lock your wrists, and allow the gun to rise up at your elbows for better muscle control.
3) He had already shot the gun a few times that day, with those bone jarring 700 grain rounds. I'm sure his hands and wrists were sore. That could have contributed.
4) I usually have some TrailBoss loads on hand, which are very tame and gentle, even at 700 grains for the bullets. Those are about the same amount of felt recoil as a 357 magnum. I'll offer any future shooters the option of which type of round do they want to try, but always one shot at a time.
No need to be scare off by these video. Man up, line up and get your chance to get a taste of this beast. I did that (with some help)
Seconding that. You should try it once. Under GOOD supervision. Hang on tight and high and you'll be fine.
![[wink]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/002.gif "Wink [wink]")
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Can someone help me with the physics? I know I'm missing something but I don't know what.
Yes, the momentum of the gas through the comp offsets the recoil. Assume two loads (numbers chosen for roundness, not real world relevance):
10 grains of powder and a 20 gr bullet
10 grains of powder and a 40 gr bullet
Each round has the same powder charge so the m part of E=0.5 * m * v^2 is constant. That leaves velocity. And velocity of the gas will be determined by the pressure. My understanding is that the pressure behind the 40 gr bullet will be higher, because it'll take longer to get out of the way of the expanding gas, so there will be slightly more time for the pressure to rise as the powder burns.
How is a heavier bullet weight going to decrease the effectiveness of the comp? Shouldn't the velocity and thus the down-force generated via the comp be higher with a heavier bullet and the same powder charge?
Thank you kindly.
Signed,
the befuddled biologist.
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My understanding of it is this.
With the 700 grain bullet you don't use the same volume of powder. So you have less powder and therefore gas volume. But this is not a problem ballistically as the larger, heavier bullet increases the gas pressure (because it's heavier and has more friction with the barrel) so you still get a significant amount of oomph out of the barrel for the larger bullet even with less gas and powder. The comp requires gas volume to work well and not just gas pressure.
ETA: Here is a good table of loading data for the 500
Note the powder charge goes down with the size of the bullet going up. Track the H110 powder as you go down.
Here is a page that shows the PSI of the loadings.
http://www.reloadammo.com/500sw.htm
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This is the formula for energy, not momentum. Recoil is governed by the momentum which is simply = m * v. So the attenuation of recoil will be the ratio of the momentum of the gasses to the momentum of the bullet or (mg * vg) / (mb * vb). For simplicity lets just assume vg = vb.
Using your example (assuming perfect compensation) the 10 grains of powder can attenuate 50% of the 20 grain bullet, but only 25% of the 40 grain bullet.
In reality the gas is moving a little faster than the bullet, but it is not directed in the opposite direction...its directed to the side at some angle. You then need to do some trigonometry to get the vector component (cosine of angle) that directly goes the opposite direction of the bullet.
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Thanks for stepping up to the challenge.
I'm missing something here. Does it really need volume? Or does it need mass? And if E= 0.5(m)(v^2), increasing the velocity/pressure of the gas by going for a heavier bullet with less powder but higher pressure, the increase in pressure would more than compensate for the loss of mass. Right?
I took a look at the load data Terraformer linked to and (yes, I really am this much of a nerd), graphed out the data for H110 powder loads - the ratio of powder mass to bullet mass on the x and the energy generated (arbitrary units calculated from fps from the 8 3/8" guns only and the bullet mass). As we move to the rounds with heavier bullets and lighter powder charges (closer to 0 on the x), the energy generated goes up. If we are generating more energy, why does the comp not work as well?
Like I said, I'm missing something...Why, as Jim says, do comps work better with high charge to bullet ratios (i.e. lower energies)? Are the comps particularly sensitive to the mass of the gas? Why? Does it have something to do with the temporal aspect of things?
It's the mass of the gas counteracting the mass of the bullet.
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Touche, it would be the mass of the gas and not the volume specifically. But obviously volume is related to mass when dealing with gas at specific pressures.
So, your graph there seems to be interesting but not to the point. I would chart grains of powder to energy of the bullet and see what that shows. I think you would get with that graph an actual "comp effectiveness" metric.
However, your graph does show one interesting thing. The energy is of the bullet. So if the energy goes up, more compensation is needed because the energy of the bullet is equal to the recoil energy, give or take a few issues not related to revolvers.
Assuming "it" is the comp, it needs some combination of volume/mass because the idea is the volume of air escaping the comp creates the downward force above the barrel to push it down.
Imagine a scuba tank filled with CO2 and a small CO2 canister both loaded to 1000 PSI. Now imagine cutting the top off both (assuming the resulting hole is proportional to the volume/mass of gas) at the same time. Which one has more force?
ETA: Again, I keep on using volume because the resulting pressure of the gas after the reaction is over is 1 atm and so the mass of gas is proportional to volume. I guess that's confusing to people. Replace volume with mass and maybe I will be less confusing.
So, your graph there seems to be interesting but not to the point. I would chart grains of powder to energy of the bullet and see what that shows. I think you would get with that graph an actual "comp effectiveness" metric.
However, your graph does show one interesting thing. The energy is of the bullet. So if the energy goes up, more compensation is needed because the energy of the bullet is equal to the recoil energy, give or take a few issues not related to revolvers.
Assuming "it" is the comp, it needs some combination of volume/mass because the idea is the volume of air escaping the comp creates the downward force above the barrel to push it down.
Imagine a scuba tank filled with CO2 and a small CO2 canister both loaded to 1000 PSI. Now imagine cutting the top off both (assuming the resulting hole is proportional to the volume/mass of gas) at the same time. Which one has more force?
ETA: Again, I keep on using volume because the resulting pressure of the gas after the reaction is over is 1 atm and so the mass of gas is proportional to volume. I guess that's confusing to people. Replace volume with mass and maybe I will be less confusing.
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