AR15 and legal issues.

[pipmaster1971]

I was having a discussion with my father in law the other day about AR15's and their equivalents (basically any nice EBR). If this has been posted before, then please feel free to point me to the correct thread and lock this one. But I am confused by what I see online on this subject (lots of contradictory information).

This question applies at the federal level only:

Obviously, it is illegal to have any full-auto weapon manufactured post 1986 (and only prior to that if you have the correct paperwork). The confusion arises because I can't seem to find any "safe" definition of what constitutes a "full-auto" weapon in the minds of the BATF (other than the obvious definition). Some web-sites say that the weapon is only "full auto" if it can fire more than one shot per trigger pull (the obvious definition). While others say a semi-auto with ANY full-auto parts is classified as "full-auto" - even though it can only fire one shot per trigger pull (in which case an old M16 with a semi-auto sear would be illegal). Even more confusing is that some sites go as far as saying a weapon modified from the factory will any full-auto parts is illegal, but if it came from the factory like that then it's fine (e.g. all full-auto parts except one).

See why I'm confused? Seems like an abstract legal minefield (maybe that's the intention).

 

[one-eyed Jack]

Rather than get 50 "opinions" here and have the thread turn into a pissing contest sooner or later, I suggest that you go online and study the Federal Firearms Regulations. It's all there. Only a suggestion. Jack.

 

[drgrant]

Pip, here is a good thread that discusses, to some degree, exactly what you
describe.... although this is more about what happens when BATFE interprets
the regs a little too generously......

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=31857

-Mike

 

[pipmaster1971]

Thanks Mike.

Wow....that's an awfull case. I've heard about it before, had no idea it was "that" bad.

 

[Chris]

You never heard of the "Full Auto Shoelace"?

Basically there is a way to rig a shoelace to allow the gun in question to fire as long as you hold the trigger. BATF declared the shoelace an NFA device.

In practical terms, if the BATmen (to use Col. Cooper's name) can get the gun to fire twice with one pull - no matter how long they have to try - you are in deep do do.

 

[jdubois]

Here's the definition of a "machine gun" from the NFA (Title 26, USC, C 53 § 5845):

"Machinegun. The term 'machinegun' means any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person."

You can see from the 'parts designed and intended' bit of it where the legal quagmire might arise about putting M16/M4 parts in your AR.

 

[pipmaster1971]

You never heard of the "Full Auto Shoelace"?

Basically there is a way to rig a shoelace to allow the gun in question to fire as long as you hold the trigger. BATF declared the shoelace an NFA device.

In practical terms, if the BATmen (to use Col. Cooper's name) can get the gun to fire twice with one pull - no matter how long they have to try - you are in deep do do.

No kidding. It seems like a damn hodge-podge of regulations. Talk about ambiguous laws.

 

[pdm]

A machinegun is what BATFE wants a machinegun to be. Ain't life grand?

 

[FunYun]

The definition of what is a MG has not changed, it has always been 'more than one shot per function of the trigger'.

What has been continually changed is what constitutes a semi-auto that is 'readily convertible to full auto'. This is where the ATF makes up some kind of BS about how you 'intended' to make a MG. Or how you intentionally made you gun malfunction in a way that makes it a MG.

 

[doobie]

Any firearm that will shoot more than one round with a single-trigger pull is a full auto.

In general to the BATFE, any semi-auto that malfunctions and fires multiple rounds per trigger pull is a full auto if it contains full auto parts.

If it doesn't contain any full auto parts, they are more likely to agree with 'it malfunctioned', and either take it or the broken parts.

 

[Droidicus]

although this is more about what happens when BATFE interprets
the regs a little too generously......

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=31857

-Mike

Based on reading this and other stories I have determined that when I get an AR-15 I will NEVER own any full-auto parts, won't buy a AR-15 that has EVER been in a full-auto configuration, get my AR-15 repaired IMMEDIATELY if it ever malfunctions, and make sure all of my neighbors in a 500 yrd radius do the same (ok... maybe this last one is a little bit too much, never can be too safe though!).

~Droid

 

[kenpoprofessor]

You never heard of the "Full Auto Shoelace"?

Basically there is a way to rig a shoelace to allow the gun in question to fire as long as you hold the trigger. BATF declared the shoelace an NFA device.

In practical terms, if the BATmen (to use Col. Cooper's name) can get the gun to fire twice with one pull - no matter how long they have to try - you are in deep do do.

Not exactly a shoelace but

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[SemiAutoSam]

Now Now Clyde You do have a tax stamp for that NFA Shoelace right ?

LOL I take it that is a Transferable and not a post May shoelace right ?

Not exactly a shoelace but

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[drumenigma]

So basically all of those auctions you see on Gunbroker for parts sets that have full auto trigger groups.....stay away......very far away. I know I always see a ton of AK47 parts kits with the FA trigger parts or just the full assembly of full auto trigger parts on there all the time. They're quite cheap but the legal troubles they could cause wouldn't be worth it even if you would be using them to make a semi-auto according to the ATF's definition.