Army chooses Sig Sauer to build Next Generation Squad Weapon.

[PatMcD]

You just know Sig most likely lowballed hard.

The good news is the military can help take care of the beta testing.

That's how Sig got the Govt pistol contract. They supplied the pistols for next to nothing with the agreement that Sig would also have the exclusive ammunition contract, which is where the real money is.

 

[Mesatchornug]

1. Looks like a metric S-ton of surplus .223 will come on line in teh next few years. Not surplus like "oh we had 48 million rounds sitting around" but suddenly everyone wants to dump it b/c "this new thing" is coming out.

2. What is the point of creating a new catridge? Not 6.8 vs. 5.56. But .227 McFLurry verus 6.8SPC or 6.8WTF or whatever. I mean, is it just a pile of arrogance. "Oh we can get the contract AND name the cartridge after ourselves." I'd make that a condition of the contract. "Sorry, the cartridge can be designed by you but can't use your name." . I guess 38S&W and 45Colt are obvious ones as well. But those were actual changed cartridges. I'm thinking the incremental "benefits" of anything 228McFlurry is not that measurable. (Besides, the .mil will F with it just enough to negate all of it. LOL)

3. Usher in the new ".22 caliber is not a man stopper" era. It won't last that long. Hell, the "9mm is not an effective man stopper" was only about 20-25 years.

If we strip out all the marketing speak, their claim is significant velocity improvement from a moderately heavy bullet, with "acceptable" life out of a 16" barrel. What's "significant"? Similar to a 28" 6.5CM barrel, in a similarly sized cartridge. That means more energy, further, with simpler external ballistics. Even if we assume this is only mostly true, the benefits of their new cartridge seem to be worth investigating, and are the result of very real updates to the case.

Obviously there's branding attached, but let's be honest here - most cartridges have someone's name in it. That's one of the perks of inventing a thing, and capitalism. Recall that this cartridge is replacing 223 Remington, after 308 Winchester, which itself supplanted 30-06 Springfield.

The shortest path back to number designations is to have the government to develop new technologies directly. Alternately, it can gain adoption by NATO, where it will earn the perfectly bland metric designation: 6.8 x 51mm NATO, right next to 6.8 Remington SPC in ANSI-SAAMI Z299-4.

I started counting in just the SAAMI rifle cartridge spec, then gave up. Look for yourself - they're almost all [...]Remington or Winchester...except for the Ruger, Nosler, or Savage entries.


We see the same in handgun cartridges, except, like you noted, they're "all" S&W or Colt (underrepresented since a few of the "Automatic" designs are originally "Automatic Colt Pistol") except for 45 Glock Automatic Pistol, 357 Sig...and some more Winchester & Remington again.


Of the 10 rimfire cartridges, 3 are Winchesters, and one is Hornady.


Having thoroughly distracted myself, I have to wonder - are you equally concerned with the naming of cars? Should they all be like the F150 and IS 500, or can we still have our Stingray?

 

[PappyM3]

"[The rifle] integrates a number of advanced technologies, including a variable magnification optic, backup etched reticle, laser rangefinder, ballistic calculator, atmospheric sensor suite, compass, Intra-Soldier Wireless, visible and infrared aiming lasers, and a digital display overlay..."

Great. "Intra-Soldier Wireless."

What's that, so Joe can GoPro his shots straight onto his Instatwitbook feedline wall? And does the whole weapons system get deadlined if the "atmospheric sensor suite" runs out of batteries?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Mesh networks for fire teams and squads. Look into DARPA’s Squad-X program.

Shared situational awareness and easier command and control. Aside from comms and position info, there is the intent to augment the optic “display” to add things like waypoint markers, blue and red locations, objectives, etc. all overlaid on the optic as you move it around, but the basic reticle is still a normal reticle that can function without power.

Initially, the augmented reality displayed will be based solely off of azimuth and I think some ranging built in. But it wont initially be able to point out red and blue forces in a 3D visual space. Just like a red dot at a certain azimuth with a range associated. Not necessarily overlaid exactly where the enemy is in a window or on a hillside.

 

[PappyM3]

Somewhat unsurprising. The Textron entry just had an operating system that was too complex. The General Dynamics had the most interesting option, but the US military just isn't ever going to go bullpup. I hope the General Dynamics comes to the civilian market though at a reasonable price (pipe dream).

Maybe now that Sig won the contract, they can consider lowering the $7,999 civilian price tag. They no longer need to rely on civilians to subsidize the program costs.

Not sure of the cost or if it will actually be released now, but they are planning to release a civilian version of the General Dynamics/True Velocity rifle.

True Velocity To Launch The Genesis Rifle - Soldier Systems Daily

 

[drgrant]

1. Looks like a metric S-ton of surplus .223 will come on line in teh next few years. Not surplus like "oh we had 48 million rounds sitting around" but suddenly everyone wants to dump it b/c "this new thing" is coming out.

2. What is the point of creating a new catridge? Not 6.8 vs. 5.56. But .227 McFLurry verus 6.8SPC or 6.8WTF or whatever. I mean, is it just a pile of arrogance. "Oh we can get the contract AND name the cartridge after ourselves." I'd make that a condition of the contract. "Sorry, the cartridge can be designed by you but can't use your name." . I guess 38S&W and 45Colt are obvious ones as well. But those were actual changed cartridges. I'm thinking the incremental "benefits" of anything 228McFlurry is not that measurable. (Besides, the .mil will F with it just enough to negate all of it. LOL)

Lol tradition dictates inventor gets to name the thing. This is the caliber debate equivalent of “old man yells at cloud”.

Why would they negate a spec they established? lol.

Of course none of this matters because there’s a good 95% chance of DOD either punting, crapping out on, or demotion of the cartridge to being a special ops thing.

 

[Broc]

Who cares about the rifle.

The optic, that sounds like it has a lot of stuff built into it.

 

[PappyM3]

Who cares about the rifle.

The optic, that sounds like it has a lot of stuff built into it.

It does. Vortex had a long podcast style Q&A video with a lead engineer for it, but I can’t find it anymore.

 

[Picton]

Mesh networks for fire teams and squads. Look into DARPA’s Squad-X program.

Shared situational awareness and easier command and control. Aside from comms and position info, there is the intent to augment the optic “display” to add things like waypoint markers, blue and red locations, objectives, etc. all overlaid on the optic as you move it around, but the basic reticle is still a normal reticle that can function without power.

Initially, the augmented reality displayed will be based solely off of azimuth and I think some ranging built in. But it wont initially be able to point out red and blue forces in a 3D visual space. Just like a red dot at a certain azimuth with a range associated. Not necessarily overlaid exactly where the enemy is in a window or on a hillside.

Hmmmm.

I'm sure it's cool, and that the possibilities really are limitless.

But.

I'd worry about information overload for individual soldiers. TMI for everyone means people have the potential to be even more confused, and at a certain point, they're just no longer a unit: they're a bunch of meat drones responding to the mesmerizing lights and whistles in their scopes. Even more, based on my own experiences, I'd guess most of this stuff would stay in the arms room because commanders would KNOW that Joe would leave these expensive items scattered all over the battlefield.

I also worry about soldier load. The demands for carrying different kinds of batteries were already getting out of hand 20 years ago; adding more of those to the load, in a world where Joe would be better off hauling more food and ammo, plus his share of the mortar and MG ammo?

I just worry, is all. There's a cost-benefit calculus I can see people doing at unit level, and those costs are not only monetary.

 

[SFC13557]

Hmm, what's the cost per basic rifle? What's the timeline for issuing these weapons to Infantry units? Maintenance? Joe proof?

"I'd worry about information overload for individual soldiers. TMI for everyone means people have the potential to be even more confused, and at a certain point, they're just no longer a unit: they're a bunch of meat drones responding to the mesmerizing lights and whistles in their scopes. Even more, based on my own experiences, I'd guess most of this stuff would stay in the arms room because commanders would KNOW that Joe would leave these expensive items scattered all over the battlefield."

Yup!

 

[PappyM3]

Hmmmm.

I'm sure it's cool, and that the possibilities really are limitless.

But.

I'd worry about information overload for individual soldiers. TMI for everyone means people have the potential to be even more confused, and at a certain point, they're just no longer a unit: they're a bunch of meat drones responding to the mesmerizing lights and whistles in their scopes. Even more, based on my own experiences, I'd guess most of this stuff would stay in the arms room because commanders would KNOW that Joe would leave these expensive items scattered all over the battlefield.

I also worry about soldier load. The demands for carrying different kinds of batteries were already getting out of hand 20 years ago; adding more of those to the load, in a world where Joe would be better off hauling more food and ammo, plus his share of the mortar and MG ammo?

I just worry, is all. There's a cost-benefit calculus I can see people doing at unit level, and those costs are not only monetary.

All valid points. There can’t be too much information displayed in the optic. It would be a very small subset of the information accessible in ATAK.

It would essentially boil down to basic situational awareness to help guide fire on the enemy and reduce fratricide. Apparently the information is easily selectable or deselect-able and defaults can be set. Quality UI research and implementation is important though.

I think the expensive toys left in arms room thing isn’t as common these days. Optics and IR lasers are already always taken out with the weapons. They’ll just determine what kind of overboard tie-down they’ll require as part of brigade SOP.

As for batteries. Oh yes. I get it. Luckily the military is currently doing a lot of research on how to recharge things on the go so fewer spare batteries are needed for everything that’s carried.

 

[Bistro]

Sig just announced another product

 

[Picton]

I think the expensive toys left in arms room thing isn’t as common these days. Optics and IR lasers are already always taken out with the weapons. They’ll just determine what kind of overboard tie-down they’ll require as part of brigade SOP.

All I know is that it's time to buy stock in whomever manufactures this:

 

[general disorder]

Sig just announced another product
View attachment 606115

Not seeing a thing in the stock that tells time.

 

[Dench]

Is the XM250 barrel replaceable...... or?

 

[AllaSnackbah]

Lmao...

"Our guys cant shoot... we need a new gun!"

Lol at the computerized scope, a software solution to a different kind of software problem! Innovative!

 

[Picton]

As for batteries. Oh yes. I get it. Luckily the military is currently doing a lot of research on how to recharge things on the go so fewer spare batteries are needed for everything that’s carried.

The newest MOS: 69DB, Solar Charger Specialist

 

[Mesatchornug]

All I know is that it's time to buy stock in whomever manufactures this:

View attachment 606126

As a filthy outsider, I went here:

(even though I know better)

 

[PappyM3]

Lmao...

"Our guys cant shoot... we need a new gun!"

Lol at the computerized scope, a software solution to a different kind of software problem! Innovative!

You realize people said dismissive things about red dots at first too, right?

 

[AllaSnackbah]

You realize people said dismissive things about red dots at first too, right?

Yeah and look how good they worked out for us. Back in ma day we qualified with iron sights! All you need is irons.

Im not saying dismissive things about new technology, im saying dismissive things about our training and how DoD would rather throw money at shiny new tech than actually focus on teaching people how to effectively use it.

 

[PappyM3]

Yeah and look how good they worked out for us. Back in ma day we qualified with iron sights! All you need is irons.

Im not saying dismissive things about new technology, im saying dismissive things about our training and how DoD would rather throw money at shiny new tech than actually focus on teaching people how to effectively use it.

Training can always be improved. But that doesn’t make the optic just shiny new tech meant to overcome deficiencies. It’s a force multiplier and soldiers will still need fundamentals.

 

[AllaSnackbah]

Training can always be improved. But that doesn’t make the optic just shiny new tech meant to overcome deficiencies. It’s a force multiplier and soldiers will still need fundamentals.

Im just frustrated. Because i know the training wont really change. When 3-22.9 came out in 2016 the level of autistic grumblings i heard from "seasoned" senior NCOs and leadership who were opposed to adopting it because "this is how we always did it" was brain melting. The opposition and bullshit they had to go through to just re-write that was ridiculous. So until theres a fundamental thought process change at tradoc/dod that loosens the reins im skeptical of any new thing thats going to radically improve "individual lethality."

 

[PappyM3]

Im just frustrated. Because i know the training wont really change. When 3-22.9 came out in 2016 the level of autistic grumblings i heard from "seasoned" senior NCOs and leadership who were opposed to adopting it because "this is how we always did it" was brain melting. The opposition and bullshit they had to go through to just re-write that was ridiculous. So until theres a fundamental thought process change at tradoc/dod that loosens the reins im skeptical of any new thing thats going to radically improve "individual lethality."

Ha, I feel ya.

 

[Dennis in MA]

If we strip out all the marketing speak, their claim is significant velocity improvement from a moderately heavy bullet, with "acceptable" life out of a 16" barrel. What's "significant"? Similar to a 28" 6.5CM barrel, in a similarly sized cartridge. That means more energy, further, with simpler external ballistics. Even if we assume this is only mostly true, the benefits of their new cartridge seem to be worth investigating, and are the result of very real updates to the case.

Obviously there's branding attached, but let's be honest here - most cartridges have someone's name in it. That's one of the perks of inventing a thing, and capitalism. Recall that this cartridge is replacing 223 Remington, after 308 Winchester, which itself supplanted 30-06 Springfield.

The shortest path back to number designations is to have the government to develop new technologies directly. Alternately, it can gain adoption by NATO, where it will earn the perfectly bland metric designation: 6.8 x 51mm NATO, right next to 6.8 Remington SPC in ANSI-SAAMI Z299-4.

I started counting in just the SAAMI rifle cartridge spec, then gave up. Look for yourself - they're almost all [...]Remington or Winchester...except for the Ruger, Nosler, or Savage entries.
View attachment 606040

We see the same in handgun cartridges, except, like you noted, they're "all" S&W or Colt (underrepresented since a few of the "Automatic" designs are originally "Automatic Colt Pistol") except for 45 Glock Automatic Pistol, 357 Sig...and some more Winchester & Remington again.
View attachment 606051

Of the 10 rimfire cartridges, 3 are Winchesters, and one is Hornady.
View attachment 606054

Having thoroughly distracted myself, I have to wonder - are you equally concerned with the naming of cars? Should they all be like the F150 and IS 500, or can we still have our Stingray?

No. I get that.

As much as I hate Fenway Park, it holds a special place in my heart. For decades, the green monster was just a big-ass green wall. If you look at HISTORICAL photos, it was a giant billboard. Then the Yawkey's painted it Fenway Greem and it stuck for a long long time. It's sad to see advertising on it again.

Same here. I don't see 6.8 Rem SPC as anything but 6.8SPC. I somehow black out the Rem part of it. The other 6.x cartridges are Grendel and Creedmoor. Neither are billboards.

We shall see if it's significantly better. I sort of doubt it. Or it'll turn out to burn out barrels faster than they could ever imagine.

 

[Mesatchornug]

We shall see if it's significantly better. I sort of doubt it.

I agree. It sounds like the brass case will be relatively uninspiring.

Or it'll turn out to burn out barrels faster than they could ever imagine.

The composite case will probably do exactly this; except for their claim* of a fancy new treatment that extends barrel life. Maybe all of it, taken as a system, really is a sea-change.

Maybe it's snake oil.

* there's that word again.

Last comment on the branding: at least on Wikipedia, it's being labeled .277 Fury; e.g., the "Sig" is trimmed out. Maybe you've already gotten your wish? Is McFlurry really that much more braggadocios than Grundle?

 

[SFC13557]

Hmmm, when I was in the MANG in the 90's thru 2010 we couldn't even get new A2's, never mind M4's so how long before these new weapon systems reach the troops?

 

[Dench]

because "this is how we always did it" was brain melting.

You'd loveeeeee the fire service. Holy f***ing shit.

 

[40 Creedmoor fan]

Man, imagine replacing all those M4s. They either have to destroy them, give them to non-NATO allies for free or sell them in the US market as surplus after removing the full/burst-auto bits. Man, I hope they don't do the last one. This will destroy all domestic AR makers. I mean, why would you pay $2500 for LaRue when you can get an M4 for $500.
Personally, I hope they sell it to non-NATO countries, destroying Russia's arms industry in the process. Who knows, we might see $100 Kalashnikovs yet

 

[Parker Schreiber]

Same here. I don't see 6.8 Rem SPC as anything but 6.8SPC. I somehow black out the Rem part of it. The other 6.x cartridges are Grendel and Creedmoor. Neither are billboards.

There's also the 6.8 Western. Don't blink, though -- it should vanish about as quickly as the other WSM rounds.

We shall see if it's significantly better. I sort of doubt it. Or it'll turn out to burn out barrels faster than they could ever imagine.

It's been reported that the contract required a 6000-round barrel life, although it's unclear to me whether that's for the AR or R version. The spec for the M4, IIRC, was 7500 rounds.

Given how many materiel projects end up overpromising and underdelivering, I wouldn't be surprised to see the all brass "civilian" round become the "day-to-day" military load. Has anyone seen any specs on cartridge weight versus, say, 7.62x39 or 6.5 Creedmoor?

 

[AllaSnackbah]

Hmmm, when I was in the MANG in the 90's thru 2010 we couldn't even get new A2's, never mind M4's so how long before these new weapon systems reach the troops?

Honestly... i was MANG from 2016-2019, then IST'd to AZ.

I had that same mentality, "we'll never see this shit" but our M17/320 whatever gayness you want to call it pistols showed up within a year of the army announcing it was gay and picked the sig over the glock.

Now granted that was useless pistols that spend their lives in peoples rucks cuz they had to sign it out but dont want to carry it or unloaded in some dickhead with no ammo's holster guarding motorpool lol. Actually useful stuff like rifles, the new nightvision, and mg's... we'll probably never get.


I honestly hope this contract crashes and burns personally, i dont think we need new ammo, and the M4 is f***ing fine, they should have just updated the current rifles with GOOD optics instead of sig trash, suppressors, etc and implemented a squad DMR role for longer range fires to support mg's.

Buuuuuut somebody at walmart, i mean, sig is good at giving handys.

 

[40 Creedmoor fan]

M17/320 whatever gayness you want to call it pistols showed up within a year of the army announcing it was gay

Wait, what? Is new Sig M17 gay? Cause it's plastic or 'cause it's not 1911? I'm confused. It's not 6.5CM, so what is it? Although, I'm already gay so...need to know what I should be rocking to show it off.