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Army chooses Sig Sauer to build Next Generation Squad Weapon.
- Thread starter Dr_Scholl
- Start date
Dennis in MA
NES Member
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- Feb 12, 2007
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Maybe a Roscoe.
How about a Gat and a gupple of gittens?
To be fair to the previous generation, they were replacing Garands. Garands were just as heavy, had a lower capacity, were a PITA to load (see - thumb damage) and unload. So the M14 WAS an improvement.
FIFY. LOL
Listen MANG. Say goodnight to the bad guy!
Mesatchornug
NES Member
Right? People whine about how heavy the M14 was - it was lighter than both the Garand and the FAL.
It looks like this thing is the same weight as an M16A2 that we were fielding in the 80s. Hell, we cut off 6" of barrel to get the M4 back down to the M16A1's original weight.
And its brother, the XM250, is looking to replace the M240 and the M249...
Even cyclists make fun of weight weenies.
Varmint
NES Member
I'm just happy to see suppressors becoming standard issue.
Why?
They add more weight and they're a PITA to clean. I'm not all that dialed in to the modern Army procurement process, but I'd be shocked if the average Joe on the battlefield has been clamoring for a suppressor.
Varmint
NES Member
Varmint
NES Member
The ones with permanent hearing damage probably wished they had them. I have to double up on ear pro when I shoot my AR.
I also like the angle of making them more commonplace, making the NFA look ever more ridiculous.
They're getting hearing damage anyway. It's coming from a million different places. Sure their weapon is one of those, but they'll get the damage anyway.
If I'd been offered a suppressor, and I had any way to avoid drawing it, I'd have avoided drawing it. In my mind, I put them in the same category as bayonets: useful in .001% of the situations an infantryman is likely to find himself in, but not worth the weight by the twentieth klick of the road march.
JRT
NES Member
The new Sig silencers are sealed, nobody is cleaning anything. Only an autist cleans a rifle silencer anyway.
The USMC went with widely distributed silencers. It’s standard in the 75th too.
Silencers allow for better command and control at the small unit level(less noise and chaos, better hearing of TL/SL commands), allow for a slightly longer time before the enemy can identify your location, and also apparently increase individual soldier accuracy with the reduced blast.
The data coming out of the Marine Corps study before they widely issued them was very telling of their effectiveness with conventional infantry formations. I think they’re well worth the weight penalty.
From what I hear, the XM250 should be a couple pounds lighter than that. But I can’t find any official numbers. Still, the XM250 is a big win in capability vs weight. Especially since the 7.62 Mk48 is a pound heavier than the M249 at 18lbs empty.
Mesatchornug
NES Member
so a 14-15 lb automatic rifle, delivering 308 energy? woof.
That was one of the few benefits of my time as company armorer. I could actually have the positive effect of following PMCS mag’s recommendation to not do white glove clean.
Hell, I gave the platoon leadership a lot of leeway to keep their weapons clean to their standard. And no need for more than brushing shit off and relubing if the guns are going to be drawn again first thing in the morning.
Ha, with 80k psi on tap, it’ll be more energy than 308 I bet. Hopefully the silencer will help keep the muzzle down.
I don’t know if the XM250 has the recoil reduction technology that Sig had in their 338 machine gun.
Looking at some rough numbers:
Vortex has been shy about releasing the weight of their new optic, but they say it weighs less than an ATACR in a Badger mount with a Wilcox Raptor laser rangefinder. So, upper limit of ~35oz
Vortex optic: 34oz
Silencer: 16oz
Peq-15: 7.5oz
Surefire: 6oz
Loaded mag: ~24oz
So, I guess we’re looking at a weight of 13.9 lbs for a fully loaded XM5 for an infantryman. Well, minus the sling. There is a lot of capability there, but that is hefty. And many missions will not need that kind of capability. You can probably save ~1.5 lbs by switching to a red dot. Because as much as that optic is a force multiplier, in urban settings or when clearing bunkers/trenches, a red dot would be better.
I really hope they’re able to keep M4s with red dots in their arms rooms so they can choose between the two for their mission at the time. But I realize that’s a lot to ask for conventional units.
Current opinion, the XM250 will be fantastic as long as it’s reliable. The XM5 is TBD. I think it would be much better off if it’s issued to like one or two guys per fire team. I think its weight, optic, and cartridge will be detrimental if issued to every member of a squad. TLs, SLs, and grenadiers should keep M4s. With SDMs getting an accurized version of the XM5. Sorry M110A1, but bye Felicia.
I can't imagine this new complicated stuff all being added and not having major problems with training. The military had MAJOR training problems with simple shooting, no optics nevermind all this extra shit on the rifles. Hope they found the time and money to give people what they need.
I'll never forget when we 1st qualed with M9's. Half of the soldiers had never even shot a f***ing pistol before and off we go to qual with them.
I'll never forget when we 1st qualed with M9's. Half of the soldiers had never even shot a f***ing pistol before and off we go to qual with them.
Amen.
I think a lot of the tech they're hanging off rifles nowadays is pretty useful in contact. But I also think 99% of an infantryman's time is spent NOT in contact.
That's a lot of time for things to get lost or damaged because Joe is bored, and using his $10k optic to lean out the barracks window to peer at the female MPs doing PT a couple streets over. And, of course, he'll drop that optic right out that window.
Again, don't mind me. I'm a curmudgeon... a curmudgeon who once used a hugely expensive pair of Steiner binos to peer at female MPs.
Don't get me wrong, I think this stuff is great. But its considerably training intensive and not well suited for people casually interested in firearms which is a lot of people in the military paradoxically
It reminds me of how the RKBA internet goes all dewy-eyed when the Army talks about new pistols.
As you pointed out above, the average civilian shooter cares more about pistols than anyone in the Army does. The people in the Army who care about pistols enough to become competent with them, and who actually think about using them in their combat roles, already serve in the kinds of units that have their own pistolsmiths and the ability to get anything they want.
I think of high-speed rifle procurement similarly, though as I readily admit I'm out of date.
SFC13557
NES Member
Not us and our A2's were A1 lowers with an A2 upper. I was in 104 INF from 96 to 2007 I think which is when the State retired the colors and we joined the 181. When we deployed to Bosnia in 2001 many rifles were deadlined for issues with machine finish on chamber.
Varmint
NES Member
I thought only officers carry handguns anymore?
