Caliber debate from a different perspective, thoughts?

crazymjb

crazymjb

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We hear a lot about how the new 9mm loads match the .40 loads, and that is why .40 is becoming more and more obsolete. Doing some quick calculations, however, it seems that .40 loads can match more closely match .45 loads, than 9mm loads can match .40 loads.

"Hot" 9mm seems to be in the 1200-1250 fps range for a 125gr bullet. This puts as at 400-434 ft/lbs of energy

"Hot" 40S&W seems to hit about 1100fps with a 180gr bullet (I had about 2K handloads of these, loaded about 120fps faster than the HST I have) reaching 484ft/lbs of energy

and finally "hot" 45 with a 230gr bullet goes about 950fps and that puts us at 461ft/lbs of energy

Of course there are outliers, especially with brands like Buffalo Bore... which seems to really be pushing it, but these are loads for "heavier bullets" and it would at least seem that .40 in terms of muzzle energy has the upper hand, and one often gets an appreciable capacity bump as well as smaller frame size for double-stack in .40 vs .45

Just curious on peoples thoughts on my thought process, not trying to start a war... Frankly I've been going back and fourth between switching my P229 to 9mm from .40, or going to a .45.

Mike
 
9mm, 40 cal, and 45 all have their place. And their respective places are pretty close together when all is said and done.

I'll kick the chalk line of the long gone proverbial dead horse, but 15+1 rounds of 9mm is better than 8 rounds of 45, 40 if you want a little more bullet weight at almost the same capacity.

If you're worried, buy all three.
 
Ultrarunner said:
9mm, 40 cal, and 45 all have their place. And their respective places are pretty close together when all is said and done.

I'll kick the chalk line of the long gone proverbial dead horse, but 15+1 rounds of 9mm is better than 8 rounds of 45, 40 if you want a little more bullet weight at almost the same capacity.

If you're worried, buy all three.
Click to expand...


My S&W M&P 45 acp is a 14+1.........
 
I don't give a crap which caliber you pick. If you can hit the target it doesn't really matter. If you can't hit your target you'll likely see a lot of backside in a wicked hurry to get out of site after the first bang of the gun. Chances are both scenarios put you out of danger. If they start shooting back at you you'd better learn to run fast or shoot better in a big damn hurry!
 
Isn't the claim that some of the modern 9mm loads can keep pace with .40 based on terminal balistics beyond just energy? Stuff like hollow point performance, for example?
 
Ahhh we all know pistol rounds are for p*ssies. A real man uses a rifle. A pistol is there so you can fight your way to a rifle. If someone breaks into my house, instead of using my 4 inch .357 mag, I'm going to use my 43 inch Garand. A .357 round is nothing compared to a 30-06, the bad guy will laugh at me and my underpowered .357 (SARC SARC SARC).
 
soloman02 said:
Ultrarunner is missing that modern 9mm handguns have gotten much better on capacity. SR9 is 17+1 and the XDm is 19+1. IDK what a 9mm M&P is but I bet it is more than 15+1.
Click to expand...

I was just using a more standard figure, the M&P9 carries 17+1 as well. And, these are all standard magazines let alone extended.

- - - Updated - - -

dingbat said:
So you're clearly not a Lange girl huh?
Click to expand...

I have no idea what this means.
 
I motion that we go to the Boston Globe as the final arbiter. Why just today, in an article describing the gunman who shot a BPD officer, they wrote that the assailant was once arrested for carrying a "high-velocity semi-automatic AB-10". I think that pretty much puts you .40 and .45 guys in your place.
 
basscatfrank said:
I motion that we go to the Boston Globe as the final arbiter. Why just today, in an article describing the gunman who shot a BPD officer, they wrote that the assailant was once arrested for carrying a "high-velocity semi-automatic AB-10". I think that pretty much puts you .40 and .45 guys in your place.
Click to expand...

LMFAO put us in place this sound like my days in the Army, when a 11B had to try and justify that him going to Ranger School and LRRP training made him better then a Scout. I am glad ammo has came a long ways in history, but if you have to add more (380 x +100 -9mm+p+++P++ or 10mm++p or 40+++P- )to to reach the basic level of a 45 acp.. maybe you are trying way to hard.... just get 45 acp
 
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basscatfrank said:
I motion that we go to the Boston Globe as the final arbiter. Why just today, in an article describing the gunman who shot a BPD officer, they wrote that the assailant was once arrested for carrying a "high-velocity semi-automatic AB-10". I think that pretty much puts you .40 and .45 guys in your place.
Click to expand...

But was it.. FULLY LOADED at the time?? With an Assault clip?


But on a serious note... It's not scientific or anything.. but I have never found a 40 that I am able to shoot near as well as just about any other caliber.. 9/45/38/44 etc..
 
Ryan_BAO said:
LMFAO put us in place this sound like my days in the Army, when a 11B had to try and justify that him going to Ranger School and LRRP training made him better then a Scout. I am glad ammo has came a long ways in history, but if you have to add more (380 x +100 -9mm+p+++P++ or 10mm++p or 40+++P- )to to reach the basic level of a 45 acp.. maybe you are trying way to hard.... just get 45 acp
Click to expand...
Why limit yourself to .45acp? jump up to 50ae I mean if caliber is so important
 
I like .45 First gun was a 1911.

Why didn't you bring up , 10mm 460 Rowland or 50gi .
For a glock there easy conversion for the .460 and .50gi. The .460 in the 1911 you need to use a comp so it adds length to the slide.

10 mm
135 gr (9 g) Underwood Nosler JHP1,600 ft/s (490 m/s)767 ft·lbf (1,040 J)

155 gr (10 g) Underwood TMJ1,500 ft/s (460 m/s)775 ft·lbf (1,051 J)

165 gr (11 g) DoubleTap Bonded Defense JHP1,400 ft/s (430 m/s)718 ft·lbf (973 J)

180 gr (12 g) Underwood Hornady XTP JHP1,300 ft/s (400 m/s)676 ft·lbf (917 J)

200 gr (13 g) DoubleTap W.F.N.G.C. Hard Cast1,300 ft/s (400 m/s)750 ft·lbf (1,020 J)

460 Rowland


80 gr (5 g)3,050 ft/s (930 m/s)1,680 ft·lbf (2,280 J)

185 gr (12 g) JHP1,560 ft/s (480 m/s)1,000 ft·lbf (1,400 J)

230 gr (15 g) JHP1,340 ft/s (410 m/s)930 ft·lbf (1,260 J)

230 gr (15 g) FMJ1,340 ft/s (410 m/s)930 ft·lbf (1,260 J)

260 gr (17 g) FMJ1,150 ft/s (350 m/s)770 ft·lbf (1,040 J)

50 gi
185 gr (12 g) SCHP1,200 ft/s (370 m/s)591 ft·lbf (801 J)

230 gr (15 g) SCHP1,000 ft/s (300 m/s)510 ft·lbf (690 J)

275 gr (18 g) JHP875 ft/s (267 m/s)468 ft·lbf (635 J)

300 gr (19 g) TMJ700 ft/s (210 m/s)326 ft·lbf (442 J)
 
Terminal ballistics are more about depth of penetration and expansion than energy. There, they get equivalent.
 
crazymjb said:
We hear a lot about how the new 9mm loads match the .40 loads, and that is why .40 is becoming more and more obsolete. Doing some quick calculations, however, it seems that .40 loads can match more closely match .45 loads, than 9mm loads can match .40 loads.

"Hot" 9mm seems to be in the 1200-1250 fps range for a 125gr bullet. This puts as at 400-434 ft/lbs of energy

"Hot" 40S&W seems to hit about 1100fps with a 180gr bullet (I had about 2K handloads of these, loaded about 120fps faster than the HST I have) reaching 484ft/lbs of energy

and finally "hot" 45 with a 230gr bullet goes about 950fps and that puts us at 461ft/lbs of energy

Of course there are outliers, especially with brands like Buffalo Bore... which seems to really be pushing it, but these are loads for "heavier bullets" and it would at least seem that .40 in terms of muzzle energy has the upper hand, and one often gets an appreciable capacity bump as well as smaller frame size for double-stack in .40 vs .45

Just curious on peoples thoughts on my thought process, not trying to start a war... Frankly I've been going back and fourth between switching my P229 to 9mm from .40, or going to a .45.

Mike
Click to expand...

Go to Brassfetcher.com, and watch the ballistic gel videos, and pay attention to expansion and penetration. In my opinion you want the most expansion before the round exits the gel, also in my opinion you don't necessarily want the round completely pentrating the gel in case an innocent bystander is in the way.

From what i saw the best 9mm round was very acceptable, but definitely not .40. Some .40 rounds have huge amounts of expansion without excessive penetration that 9mm can't match. im not saying 9mm isn't good but it's not .40.

Spend some time watching with an open mind.

It also depends on brand and projectile, you can have some 9mm rounds be better than .40, and some .40 rounds be better than .45.
 
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