CMP 1911s not selling to MA in 2021

[CrackPot]

The change in C.140 section 131 is statute and is not inclusive of 940 CMR 16.00. It's moot for now, mostly. The Relics portion requires a gun to be at least 50 years old. So my understanding is a MA dealer will be able to bring in all the "older" handguns from out of state and sell them to a LTC/03 holder as long as the handgun wasn't a war relic.

Even a war relic can be sold to an 03 if has been washed through a retail sale at some point. It does not say originally sold at retail, just that it WAS sold at retail. So bring back, have a dealer/FFL sell it to someone, then it can go to a MA Dealer and then can sell/transfer to an 03.

 

[jpm]

My point is that what the intent of Congress was when they set the rules up for the CMP. Why does the CMP try to restrict resale? Why are there no direct shipments to 03s? Why are a tiny amount of 1911s released when there's literally millions of surplus 1911s in warehouses? Why can't surplus American guns be re-imported easily?

Its because the CMP's job is to maintain an artificially-high price.

CMP has absolutely nothing to do with importing guns. CMP guns are US military owned and donated to CMP, imported guns are a commercial endeavor undertaken by commercial entities. Imports don't belong to our military or they wouldn't need to be imported.

 

[Deleted member 67409]

CMP has absolutely nothing to do with importing guns. CMP guns are US military owned and donated to CMP, imported guns are a commercial endeavor undertaken by commercial entities. Imports don't belong to our military or they wouldn't need to be imported.

I'm not going to argue this all day because I already cited the book that paints the picture better. However, you're looking at the surface, not the details. Who writes statutes that both control the CMP and the import of surplus guns? Congress. Believe it or not, but Congress is capable of creating statutory schemes that work in concert.

 

[PatMcD]

I'm probably not reading things correctly, but some here have the wrong idea on why the CMP is in the gun-selling business. The one and only reason is because they were chartered by Congress in 1903 to promote firearm safety and marksmanship training to civilians. They were not, and are not, funded by the Govt. in any way. I guess technically you could say they are funded because the Govt allows the CMP to sell surplus/obsolete/repatriated firearms that the Govt paid for to begin with, but for the most part, those guns would go out to wholesale on the world market or destroyed otherwise.
Anyways, selling surplused Govt firearms funds the CMP's efforts. The supply of Garands is getting lower every day. Same thing with the 1911's. Once they are gone, they are gone. They are hoping today's sales are able to fund the program indefinitely. They don't limit the number of sales of any firearm to protect the commercial gun industry.

 

[mac1911]

CMP has absolutely nothing to do with importing guns. CMP guns are US military owned and donated to CMP, imported guns are a commercial endeavor undertaken by commercial entities. Imports don't belong to our military or they wouldn't need to be imported.

Right this is why CMP did not get the S.Korean surplus. Century win the bid on those for about $50mil or so.
Thats when Obuma put the squash on that deal. I think they ended up with lots of Korean ammo?
Before that carbines and some garands where coming in from Israel
SOG was selling those at higher prices than CMP

 

[MarkT]

More incentive to move...basically anywhere.

MA is literally the only state they won’t ship/sell to.

If you start packing now, you might make it to America in time to throw your hat in the ring.

Where exactly IS America these days...

 

[drgrant]

Even a war relic can be sold to an 03 if has been washed through a retail sale at some point. It does not say originally sold at retail, just that it WAS sold at retail. So bring back, have a dealer/FFL sell it to someone, then it can go to a MA Dealer and then can sell/transfer to an 03.

So in other words, all of these changes for 03s are basically a large case of absolutely nothing, with ia net result of minimal improvement of anything?

Unfortunately you are wrong. The new law was changes to MGL chap 140 only. It changed restrictions on dealers that existed in MGL 140. 940CMR16 is based on consumer safety law and it TOTALLY separate from MGL chap 140. It is regulations promulgated by the AG enabled by the consumer safety laws. The enabling law was not changed and the CMR was not changed so the CMR still applies. The only way the legislature could change the CMR would be to change the underlying law that enabled it or otherwise pass a law that specifically invalidated 940CMR16.

So no, you cannot get your CMP 1911 from a 01 or 07 even if CMP would ship it because the gun has not previously been sold commercially. Yes it sucks.

Is this subtlety something many MA Dealers will understand? Not a chance.

So basically all that stuff about MGL recognizing 03s turns out to be ultimately worthless. Like if a distributor imported a bunch of old shitty milsurp handguns they could not
lawfully sell them to an MA 03 within the context of that constriction because "the gun had not been previously sold commercially" of course good luck to the AGs office actually determining
that, but I can see why a weak kneed remote might balk.

 

[CrackPot]

So in other words, all of these changes for 03s are basically a large case of absolutely nothing, with ia net result of minimal improvement of anything?


So basically all that stuff about MGL recognizing 03s turns out to be ultimately worthless. Like if a distributor imported a bunch of old shitty milsurp handguns they could not
lawfully sell them to an MA 03 within the context of that constriction because "the gun had not been previously sold commercially" of course good luck to the AGs office actually determining
that, but I can see why a weak kneed remote might balk.

Any non-milsurp over 50 years old is good to go. Milsurp you have the challenge of "was it previously sold at retail" to work around. And yes, what are the chances of the AG figuring this out and dealing with it?

 

[76Too]

Where exactly IS America these days...

Indiana for me. Salt of the earth kinda folks out here and they’re more accepting of Yankees than southerners, I think. Lots and lots of firearms related sporting events around here and Ohio and it’s definitely worth a look if you’re thinking of pulling up anchor in MA.

 

[Mountain]

My point is that what the intent of Congress was when they set the rules up for the CMP. Why does the CMP try to restrict resale? Why are there no direct shipments to 03s? Why are a tiny amount of 1911s released when there's literally millions of surplus 1911s in warehouses? Why can't surplus American guns be re-imported easily?

Its because the CMP's job is to maintain an artificially-high price.

How familiar are you with the CMP, and where do you get this information? At least based on what I'm reading in your posts, you are not very familiar with how they operate and your info is way off. If some book is the source, the author's premise is off.

The CMP's mission is to promote marksmanship. PERIOD. Everyone likes to get excited about the M1 Garand and 1911 sales but those are simply a source of income to help the CMP support its mission, as were sales of other firearms during the DCM era prior to CMP. Yeah there's a bunch of us adults regularly shooting matches, from young guys still in or just out of the service to old Vietnam vets, plus a bigger mix of pure civilians. However, given the DCM's and CMP's evolution over time we are not the focus either. CMP's main goal is to promote marksmanship for youth. I get this straight out CMP officers' mouths and have heard the same comments from various staff members. Promoting marksmanship was the original mission of the DCM, and it remains the mission today for the CMP.

Given the CMP's mission, it makes no sense that they would restrict sales to prop up the firearms industry. If that were the case, why the hell would they be selling M1's at a 25% to 60%+ discount vs. market and the 1911's at roughly half of market for govt issue 1911's? It's more an issue of limited armorer capacity for checking / refurbishing vs. very high demand. Their Service Grade M1's have something like a 3-4 month lead time now?

If there are millions of 1911's, how would CMP dump those into the market all at once? Front end loader into tote bins and auction by the ton? They are not some massive organization with logistics to rival Amazon. They are more like a handful of people working on a moderate budget and can only process so many orders at a time. At least publicly, they seem to be handling the usual high maintenance collector crowd and especially 1911 madness with much patience- way more than I would be able to muster.

Regarding ease of import- that has absolutely nothing to do with CMP. Were it not for the recent good fortune of acquiring the M1's in the Philippines, the Garand sales might already be history. The Greek returns have pretty much been sold and likewise for the Turkish returns. The M1 carbines and Garands in Korea do not belong to Uncle Sam, at least according to the Koreans. While we can argue that the Koreans are wrong, that whole possession is 9/10's thing comes into play. We are more likely to see that stuff come back via CAI or someone like Classic than via CMP. The CMP does not purchase large stock of milsurps from 'private' hands.

If you are getting caught up in the online torches and pitchfork collector crowd who are highly critical of the CMP's 1911 program, take a step back and consider that the CMP is simply using the 1911's to generate revenue in support of their mission. Their ability to handle transactions is somewhat limited, so regardless of how many are 'out there', CMP will only be selling what they can manage at any given time.

 

[Deleted member 67409]

How familiar are you with the CMP, and where do you get this information? At least based on what I'm reading in your posts, you are not very familiar with how they operate and your info is way off.

The CMP's mission is to promote marksmanship. PERIOD. Everyone likes to get excited about the M1 Garand and 1911 sales but those are simply a source of income to help the CMP support its mission, as were sales of other firearms during the DCM era prior to CMP. Yeah there's a bunch of us adults regularly shooting matches, from young guys still in or just out of the service to old Vietnam vets, plus a bigger mix of pure civilians. However, given the DCM's and CMP's evolution over time we are not the focus either. CMP's main goal is to promote marksmanship for youth. I get this straight out CMP officers' mouths and have heard the same comments from various staff members. Promoting marksmanship was the original mission of the DCM, and it remains the mission today for the CMP.

Given the CMP's mission, it makes no sense that they would restrict sales to prop up the firearms industry. If that were the case, why the hell would they be selling M1's at a 25% to 60%+ discount vs. market and the 1911's at roughly half of market for govt issue 1911's? It's more an issue of limited armorer capacity for checking / refurbishing vs. very high demand. Their Service Grade M1's have something like a 3-4 month lead time now?

If there are millions of 1911's, how would CMP dump those into the market all at once? Front end loader into tote bins and auction by the ton? They are not some massive organization with logistics to rival Amazon. They are more like a handful of people working on a moderate budget and can only process so many orders at a time. At least publicly, they seem to be handling the usual high maintenance collector crowd and especially 1911 madness with much patience- way more than I would be able to muster.

Regarding ease of import- that has absolutely nothing to do with CMP. Were it not for the recent good fortune of acquiring the M1's in the Philippines, the Garand sales might already be history. The Greek returns have pretty much been sold and likewise for the Turkish returns. The M1 carbines and Garands in Korea do not belong to Uncle Sam, at least according to the Koreans. While we can argue that the Koreans are wrong, that whole possession is 9/10's thing comes into play. We are more likely to see that stuff come back via CAI or someone like Classic than via CMP. The CMP does not purchase large stock of milsurps from 'private' hands.

If you are getting caught up in the online torches and pitchfork collector crowd who are highly critical of the CMP's 1911 program, take a step back and consider that the CMP is simply using the 1911's to generate revenue in support of their mission. Their ability to handle transactions is somewhat limited, so regardless of how many are 'out there', CMP will only be selling what they can manage at any given time.

See post no. 27. And I'm very familiar with what the CMP's publicly-stated mission is, I've been a milsurp owner since I was 18 (ten years ago) and I keep up to date with all kinds of milsurp news.

 

[jpm]

Any non-milsurp over 50 years old is good to go. Milsurp you have the challenge of "was it previously sold at retail" to work around. And yes, what are the chances of the AG figuring this out and dealing with it?

I think you guys are missing a simple fact. Unless the milsurp in question was obtained directly from the military, then it was previously sold at retail. So yeah some dealer could buy a truckload of 1911s and sell them here to LTC+03 holders come January 1.

 

[majspud]

Glad I found mine in my LGS 10 years ago next month.
t

 

[mac1911]

The cmp is doing little in the way of prices on surplus rifles.
Please direct me to $750 garands out side of the cmp.
Please hook me up with Garamds with new stocks and barrels under $1000

Same with the 1911s , your not finding to many US property marked 1911s out in the wild for what the cmp is selling them for ,.....even before cmp came into the 80k or so from the US Army.

If your a collector your not getting your specimens by cmp mail order. Most collectors i know are not to hung up on price especially when they have a slot that needs to be filled.

The only thing to blame any gun prices on are those that keep digging deeper into their wallet to pay for them. Like anything else.
IDGAF what you say the $69 mosins are not worth $450 today BUT thats what I was offered for mine. Sold gone good bye and thank you.
Same with model 60s all of a sudden They are $200 plus for new production and older models are getting premium prices! With over 10 million made you think they would still be $50 everywhere

 

[Nick Leduc]

Why does the CMP try to restrict resale? Why are there no direct shipments to 03s? Why are a tiny amount of 1911s released when there's literally millions of surplus 1911s in warehouses? Why can't surplus American guns be re-imported easily?

Its because the CMP's job is to maintain an artificially-high price.

I mean you technically are correct. I would say they are trying to protect their price point. Trying to hold on to some of the supply to create a fake demand. I would imagine if they didn't have the 8 garands a year rule then FFLS would be filling their store with them and flood the markets. It would lead to a race to the bottom with prices if FFLS knew the supply was endless.
Same with the 1911. I am told by the CMP that 8k were released previously and 18k applied. Thats a demand. 2nd round, and I will apply and hope I get in. Do i need another 1911? No. Well yes, but also no. But I certainly don't want to be sitting here in 20 years saying man I wish I got those cheap 1911s from the CMP years ago. And when they hit a point where they have more 1911s than demand, theyll open up to purchasers who have already purchased a 1911. And Ill apply then too, because I dont want to miss out on the 2nd 1911.

I think the biggest problem with the CMP is no one knows about them!!!! 99% of gun owners I talk to have no clue about them!

 

[mac1911]

I mean you technically are correct. I would say they are trying to protect their price point. Trying to hold on to some of the supply to create a fake demand. I would imagine if they didn't have the 8 garands a year rule then FFLS would be filling their store with them and flood the markets. It would lead to a race to the bottom with prices if FFLS knew the supply was endless.
Same with the 1911. I am told by the CMP that 8k were released previously and 18k applied. Thats a demand. 2nd round, and I will apply and hope I get in. Do i need another 1911? No. Well yes, but also no. But I certainly don't want to be sitting here in 20 years saying man I wish I got those cheap 1911s from the CMP years ago. And when they hit a point where they have more 1911s than demand, theyll open up to purchasers who have already purchased a 1911. And Ill apply then too, because I dont want to miss out on the 2nd 1911.

I think the biggest problem with the CMP is no one knows about them!!!! 99% of gun owners I talk to have no clue about them!

people not knowing only helps the ones that do.

I dont think cmp does the limit to preserve inventory or keep guns from dealers.
Cmp has sold off other bulk inventory in the past im sure... Cmp has what 300mil in the kitty? Im sure they could survive a long while on that.
Pre cmp it was one rifle per person period.

 

[jpm]

I dont think cmp does the limit to preserve inventory or keep guns from dealers.
Cmp has sold off other bulk inventory in the past im sure... Cmp has what 300mil in the kitty? Im sure they could survive a long while on that.
Pre cmp it was one rifle per person period.

No they do it because their charter is to promote marksmanship, not make 3rd parties rich by reselling 100 garands a year they get dirt cheap. I would argue that the current limit is too high and it should be a small number per year to prevent the flippers from grabbing them all up to put on gunbroker and forums.

 

[mac1911]

No they do it because their charter is to promote marksmanship, not make 3rd parties rich by reselling 100 garands a year they get dirt cheap. I would argue that the current limit is too high and it should be a small number per year to prevent the flippers from grabbing them all up to put on gunbroker and forums.

They dont need M1s and 1911 sales to promote marksmenship. They could just keep selling air rifles and 22s.

 

[AHM]

Glad there's no Equal Protection angle to this issue...

 

[jpm]

They dont need M1s and 1911 sales to promote marksmenship. They could just keep selling air rifles and 22s.

No my point is they don't limit sales to preserve inventory, they do it because they're charter is to promote marksmanship, not make flippers rich.

 

[jakeroub]

Well, isn’t it the Army that supposedly demanded the 8 garands per year limit? It was 12 up to a few years ago.

I agree that most true Garand collectors are not buying 8 per year mail order. I’ll go out on a limb and say that most folks who are buying 8 are either parting them out or reselling them whole- yes, for profit.

I’m on the CMP forum multiple times every day for the past several years and have a pretty good idea of what is going on. I can attest to the fact that jpm and mac1911 are also hatibual long term followers.

 

[Hardwired]

More incentive to move...basically anywhere.

MA is literally the only state they won’t ship/sell to.

If you start packing now, you might make it to America in time to throw your hat in the ring.

I think that option is gone soon, all states are equally screwed in Oceana.

 

[mac1911]

Well, isn’t it the Army that supposedly demanded the 8 garands per year limit? It was 12 up to a few years ago.

I agree that most true Garand collectors are not buying 8 per year mail order. I’ll go out on a limb and say that most folks who are buying 8 are either parting them out or reselling them whole- yes, for profit.

I’m on the CMP forum multiple times every day for the past several years and have a pretty good idea of what is going on. I can attest to the fact that jpm and mac1911 are also hatibual long term followers.

I know several old timers who for many years have pooled together thier yearly limits, strip off any "rarez" part and correct rifles best they can and stuff the ones they like in the abyss and sell off the rest.
They stopped a few years back when they started coming with new stocks and cmp got better at finding the rare parts and the "collectable" guns and putting them up for auction.
For example

Civilian Marksmanship Program - Promoting firearms safety training!

Cmp is not an excuse you cant find a USGI 1911

 

[mac1911]

I mean you technically are correct. I would say they are trying to protect their price point. Trying to hold on to some of the supply to create a fake demand. I would imagine if they didn't have the 8 garands a year rule then FFLS would be filling their store with them and flood the markets. It would lead to a race to the bottom with prices if FFLS knew the supply was endless.
Same with the 1911. I am told by the CMP that 8k were released previously and 18k applied. Thats a demand. 2nd round, and I will apply and hope I get in. Do i need another 1911? No. Well yes, but also no. But I certainly don't want to be sitting here in 20 years saying man I wish I got those cheap 1911s from the CMP years ago. And when they hit a point where they have more 1911s than demand, theyll open up to purchasers who have already purchased a 1911. And Ill apply then too, because I dont want to miss out on the 2nd 1911.

I think the biggest problem with the CMP is no one knows about them!!!! 99% of gun owners I talk to have no clue about them!

I will add that 90% of the buyers of garands from the cmp never participate in cmp marksmenship programs/matches/shoots . Heck i know several that bought them put 20 rounds through them and now just sit lonely in a dark space.

 

[Mountain]

See post no. 27. And I'm very familiar with what the CMP's publicly-stated mission is, I've been a milsurp owner since I was 18 (ten years ago) and I keep up to date with all kinds of milsurp news.

Yeah, I read that and don't see the connection between current CMP practice and Cummings / Interarms- even by the thinnest thread. If you are indeed familiar with the CMP, you must simply be having fun or making a tongue-in-cheek statement when you suggest that CMP is part of some bigger small arms price fixing cabal.

Sucks that we can't get access to the 1911's in Massachusetts but how could anyone in their right mind expect a relatively small organization to lock horns with Mass over the potential to sell a few beat up 1911's? Massachusetts is not the hill for their legal coffers to die on.

 

[Deleted member 67409]

Yeah, I read that and don't see the connection between current CMP practice and Cummings / Interarms- even by the thinnest thread. If you are indeed familiar with the CMP, you must simply be having fun or making a tongue-in-cheek statement when you suggest that CMP is part of some bigger small arms price fixing cabal.

Sucks that we can't get access to the 1911's in Massachusetts but how could anyone in their right mind expect a relatively small organization to lock horns with Mass over the potential to sell a few beat up 1911's? Massachusetts is not the hill for their legal coffers to die on.

Here's the causal thread:

*The US never sold surplus guns en masse to companies like Interarms, though there was a period where Garands and 1911s were on the surplus market.

*Gun companies lobbied Congress to restrict future access by companies like Interarms to US surplus guns, both here and in foreign sources, because surplus guns undercut sales by SAAMI members.

*The only source for US surplus guns is the CMP, who sets a price floor. They sell "below market price" because they establish market price. No one else can sell surplus US guns direct from US military sources.

The CMP sets the price floor. If the millions of M1s and 1911s were released onto the market by private sellers, which would be the most capitalistic and efficient manner of getting guns into civilian hands, there wouldn't be a price floor and market equilibrium would be much lower. The US made approximately 5.45 million M1s - in comparison, there's about 11 million Remington 870s. Obviously 870s and M1s aren't apples to apples comparisons, especially with regard to rare variants of each, but I'm willing to bet that market equilibrium on a shooter-grade M1 would be lower if the guns were sold to a surplus dealer.

And just to be super clear, pricing is a form of gun control. The lowest Garand CMP price I'm aware of is from a few years ago, I remember $650 for a field grade. $650 is a lot of money to many gun owners, especially young and novice gun owners.

 

[Nick Leduc]

$650 is a lot of money to many gun owners

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA



Also, I was unaware of gun companies lobbying the restrictions of US surplus.

 

[Deleted member 67409]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA



Also, I was unaware of gun companies lobbying the restrictions of US surplus.

Again, the book I mentioned describes how SAAMI lobbied to restrict access to surplus. From GCA 1968 to I think 1984 or 86, importers couldn't bring in any surplus guns that had been used by any military. Edit: some companies like Interarms "got around" this by releasing stuff that was bought up before GCA over years.

The point of the CMP is to encourage young people to be better marksmen, right? How many people under 21 have $650 to throw around for an obsolete gun shooting an expensive cartridge? CMP shooting has a known age demographic issue:

How You Can Save The CMP Sports for a New Generation - The Truth About Guns

Back then good M1 rifles were still available at the CMP outlet at Camp Perry. The rifles you find there today are severely lacking. Those rifles were $500-800, which seemed like a fortune to me at the time. When I graduated from high school in 2008, a nice Springfield could be had for $600. Greek .30-06 was cheap and everywhere.

Those days are now long past, and for reasons that are completely preventable. But they are, in fact, reversible.

The insanely inflated prices of trash-tier rifles is the fault of an aging population that’s snapping up what’s left of a once-flourishing surplus market. Yes, this may sound like a millennial blaming Boomers for yet another problem, but this time it’s true. There aren’t many new shooters in these sports because there is no way for a new shooter to obtain gear at any reasonable price.

 

[67ray]

I am reading through this thread that these are all GI guns, which of course, were paid for by US taxpayers.

Yet here we are being asked to pay for something that we already paid for. Hmmmm why shouldn't these guns be returned to taxpayers who paid for them originally? Why do we have to pay for them again?

Would even be willing to pay the costs of the arsenal refinishing that many of them have. Even though as a taxpayer the armed forces received the guns I paid for in new condition.

Help me understand where I am wrong here
.

 

[jpm]

And just to be super clear, pricing is a form of gun control. The lowest Garand CMP price I'm aware of is from a few years ago, I remember $650 for a field grade. $650 is a lot of money to many gun owners, especially young and novice gun owners.

No, a few years ago when I bought my first 2 Garands they were $650 for service grade.