This was on a motorcycle forum. Some of them seem to think this is a great idea. One of the guys suggested I move "North to Ohio" as their laws are so friendly.
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Comments on shotgun "advice"
- Thread starter garandman
- Start date
Shark_Cage
NES Member
I would never even consider that. Other than the liability concerns, If I point a shotgun at someone (at home) its because I truly fear for my family's life. Its time to stop the threat.
if the situation has gotten to the point where you've got a gun trained on another human being the last thing you need to do is blast them with a chunk of rubber. when they call your bluff you eat sh!t.
could see a MA jury siding with the bad guy should be survive saying that the shooter used these specialty rounds with the express purpose of playing with an torturing the bad guy before really dropping the hammer on him.
pure insanity. want non-lethal? use mace/OC... don't compromise your primary means of defense with silly novelty loads.
could see a MA jury siding with the bad guy should be survive saying that the shooter used these specialty rounds with the express purpose of playing with an torturing the bad guy before really dropping the hammer on him.
pure insanity. want non-lethal? use mace/OC... don't compromise your primary means of defense with silly novelty loads.
![[rofl]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/013.gif "ROFL [rofl]")
RFWAVELENGTH
Banned
+1 on that sentiment. I also keep a shotgun (Remington 870 12-gauge) for home defense. I do not own any "less lethal" rounds. Outside of some very specific law-enforcement applications, they are not appropriate for defense. You are correct; it is time to stop the threat. Buckshot and slugs are combat-proven threat-stoppers.
I fully agree..I also have an 870..I would never think about putting less-then-lethal rounds in it for Home Defense.
45collector
NES Member
I keep one of those Nerf guns next to my bed. If a burglar breaks in I light him up with 20 rounds of foam fury. If he doesn't get the point after that it's time for 230gr .45acp hollowpoints.
PS the nerf gun has a flash suppressor, bayo lug, folding stock, lazer sight, flashlight and pistol grip.
PS the nerf gun has a flash suppressor, bayo lug, folding stock, lazer sight, flashlight and pistol grip.
When you are being threatened there is only one decision. Is lethal force my only way to secure myself and my family from great bodily harm or death? You don't show the BG a gun and warn him, you don't fire a warning shot at the wall, you don't verbally warn him....you do NONE of that. The moment your hand reaches for your weapon, your mind should be made up and that decision is to shoot at this person until the threat has ceased. Anything less than that opens you up to more danger and possible prosecution.
Remember, this is MA. It doesn't take much to turn the victim into the perp. The fewer facts surrounding the case the better off you are. The more actions you have to explain, the more opportunity you will give the authorities to find fault in your actions.
God forbid I am ever in that situation my lawyer will have one story to tell. "The man entered my clients home, my client saw that his life and his families life was in danger so he subdued the threat."
Remember, this is MA. It doesn't take much to turn the victim into the perp. The fewer facts surrounding the case the better off you are. The more actions you have to explain, the more opportunity you will give the authorities to find fault in your actions.
God forbid I am ever in that situation my lawyer will have one story to tell. "The man entered my clients home, my client saw that his life and his families life was in danger so he subdued the threat."
I agree with the vast majority of the sentiment provided here.
Employing a "less than lethal" ammunition in a self-defense situation where lethal force was not warrented will open you up to massive liability and possibly criminal procecution for assualt and battery with a deadly weapon. If lethal force is warrented, use leathal force to subdue the threat.
While I agree with MXD's sentiment, there is one point that I would argue with him. At the point where you grab a lethal force weapon (Firearm or other) you need not have made the decision to apply lethal force, only that lethal force may be necessary. The point where one makes the lethal force determination is when the lethal weapon is aimed. While these points may be extremely close in time in some situations, in others they could be spaced significantly.
Example:
Wake up in the middle of the night, to what you think was shattered glass. This is followed by a bump or creek on the first floor.
Sit up and get handgun with flashlight.
move to storage of shotguns.
Remove first shotgun and hand to wife, tell her to be prepared to call 911.
Remove second shotgun and place pistol on belt.
Open bedroom door and cover stairwell
Direct Wife to son's bedroom.
Close son's bedroom door.
Sweep House to determine source of sound. (If I lived in MA, this would be replaced with calling 911 and exiting the house from my son's bedroom in an attempt to flee)
In that example I have taken deadly weapons into hand 3 times, but at no point have I made the decision to apply lethal force, merely to have it ready.
Employing a "less than lethal" ammunition in a self-defense situation where lethal force was not warrented will open you up to massive liability and possibly criminal procecution for assualt and battery with a deadly weapon. If lethal force is warrented, use leathal force to subdue the threat.
While I agree with MXD's sentiment, there is one point that I would argue with him. At the point where you grab a lethal force weapon (Firearm or other) you need not have made the decision to apply lethal force, only that lethal force may be necessary. The point where one makes the lethal force determination is when the lethal weapon is aimed. While these points may be extremely close in time in some situations, in others they could be spaced significantly.
Example:
Wake up in the middle of the night, to what you think was shattered glass. This is followed by a bump or creek on the first floor.
Sit up and get handgun with flashlight.
move to storage of shotguns.
Remove first shotgun and hand to wife, tell her to be prepared to call 911.
Remove second shotgun and place pistol on belt.
Open bedroom door and cover stairwell
Direct Wife to son's bedroom.
Close son's bedroom door.
Sweep House to determine source of sound. (If I lived in MA, this would be replaced with calling 911 and exiting the house from my son's bedroom in an attempt to flee)
In that example I have taken deadly weapons into hand 3 times, but at no point have I made the decision to apply lethal force, merely to have it ready.
DickWanner
Banned
Not to mention he's now left with only two lethal round if he needs them. He seems to be under the assumption that he never misses or that one round can take down a group of BGs. What happens if it's three meth-heads with knives?...
And if I lived in a free state my Saiga would be loaded with a 12-round box mag, not 5.
And if I lived in a free state my Saiga would be loaded with a 12-round box mag, not 5.
Good luck cycling the Saiga with that crap.
buck, buck, buck, buck, buck, buck, buck.
with more buck in a shell carrier on a belt (i have a belt with shell carrier, and a flashlight in a holster that I keep with my HD gun...slap the belt on when I grab the gun, extra ammo, extra flashlight)
with more buck in a shell carrier on a belt (i have a belt with shell carrier, and a flashlight in a holster that I keep with my HD gun...slap the belt on when I grab the gun, extra ammo, extra flashlight)
Brin747
NES Member
Do they make lime slugs?
At distances found inside most homes, most less than lethal rounds fired from a 12 gauge shotgun could in fact, be lethal. They will certainly incapacitate. I've had rather extensive experience with alternative shotgun ammo including bean bags, wood projectiles, various forms of rubber, and so on. If I shot you with any one of these from 20 to 30 feet away, you are going down and staying down. I think they are a great option and I would not hesitate to load my home defense weapon with them.
This guy is operating on the seriously flawed assumption that the other person involved in his hypothetical altercation, should they be armed, is also going to wait 2-3 rounds before getting down to "serious business".
RFWAVELENGTH
Banned
These rounds are much more likely to permanently maim or cripple an assailant than kill him. Israeli police and soldiers have used rubber bullets for riot control for decades, crippling many young Palestinians. There have been documented cases here in the United States of suspects maimed by such projectiles. In one case, a 12-gauge beanbag round, aimed by an officer at a suspect's chest, struck him in the head, causing a skull fracture and the loss of an eye. These types of incidents lead to huge $$$$ lawsuits. A permanently crippled person can sue you for a lot more than the family of a dead person can.
LTL rounds for defensive use are a truckload of fail. The court will treat you as though you applied deadly force anyways, so why not use something that actually causes damage? (and is a better stopper, to boot).
LTL rounds were designed for police to use against rioters and other sundry pest-type knuckleheads, not threats which justify a deadly force response.
-Mike
LTL rounds were designed for police to use against rioters and other sundry pest-type knuckleheads, not threats which justify a deadly force response.
-Mike
Is that the Cadburry Bunny?
Seriously, a Shotgun is a good home defence firearm ONLY if you plan on sitting in the dark waiting for the BG to come to you. A much better choice is a pistol in one hand and a flashlight in the other IF you plan on clearing rooms. And you better get some training clearing rooms before you try that for real.
The length of a shotgun makes it perfect for your opponent to grab the barrel as you walk through a doorway. Now he owns you.
Why yes, yes it is.
And not all of us have LTCs.
I have my shotty set up for home defense; 18" bbl, collapsible stock and pistol grip, and a surefire forend. 7+1 capacity tube. I've practiced clearing room in my house, and I don't really like it, but it is what it is. Fortunately, there's a good chokepoint at the top of the stairs, and nothing much worth dying over downstairs.
You sleep with a belt on?
LTL/LL for firearms might have a place in the police world... I don't think it does in the civilian world. Not from a regulatory standpoint, but rather a tactical one...
Here's the root of my thinking on this...
When/if civilians use force, it will not likely be in a situation where you are well informed, prepared or warned. There are exceptions, but for the most part, it will be a surprise (and not a pleasant one).
An officer may encounter a similar "surprise", but they will also encounter situations where they are called to a scene, have time to evaluate and choose a weapon appropriate to the situation, etc... More over, they will in many instances have someone else there who can escalate to lethal force if needed.
That's what you lose first and foremost with LTL/LL is the ability to escalate rapidly. So, you raise your been-bag shooter and he pulls his 88 magnum... Guess who's gonna die?
Same problem with tasers - you miss, or it fails to incapacitate for whatever reason - there you are in arms reach of bad guy (here's a hint, that's not a good place to be).
Here's the root of my thinking on this...
When/if civilians use force, it will not likely be in a situation where you are well informed, prepared or warned. There are exceptions, but for the most part, it will be a surprise (and not a pleasant one).
An officer may encounter a similar "surprise", but they will also encounter situations where they are called to a scene, have time to evaluate and choose a weapon appropriate to the situation, etc... More over, they will in many instances have someone else there who can escalate to lethal force if needed.
That's what you lose first and foremost with LTL/LL is the ability to escalate rapidly. So, you raise your been-bag shooter and he pulls his 88 magnum... Guess who's gonna die?
Same problem with tasers - you miss, or it fails to incapacitate for whatever reason - there you are in arms reach of bad guy (here's a hint, that's not a good place to be).
When I get my home defense shotgun in a month or so, my only decision to make is whether to keep one in the chamber when I'm sleeping or to rack one once I come across that bump in the night.
However, the choice to use LTL rounds have never factored in. Maybe reduced recoil loads, but not LTL
However, the choice to use LTL rounds have never factored in. Maybe reduced recoil loads, but not LTL
I keep mine cruiser ready....tube loaded, action closed, safety off, hammer down on an empty chamber. Just unsecure, rack, and you're off.
tuna
NES Member
I'll be getting either a 12-ga persuader or a moss 20-ga. I think it'd be better to answer that bump in the night with my own sound of racking one!
