Firefighter shot by cop.

[atilla]

good question about the officer and the effects, however i'm guessing, and i have no experience as a LEO or with a taser, but you'd need to have the circuit complete--so keep one hand off of the dude's skin.

and @ "every arrest preceded by a stun gun" as i was just discussing privately with GPP about escalation of force and the use of a taser in an episode of "cops" (luls) i'd watched the other day.

my personal opinion is that of course non-lethal is of course preferable to lethal force, but it should not be used as a compliance tool for the luls. to use as a compliance tool for an aggressive subject, or when you're actively engaged in combat with someone is OK. but like i said, that's my opinion only.

 

[bigblue]

I agree with most of your points but it just brings me back to my original one: Training. Either issue insulated gloves that are worn constantly (they won't be) or you will need to train "not to touch skin" when deploying the taser/stun gun.

In this case who knows what would have happened. Maybe both get stunned partially and the outcome is the same: LE fears for his life, is partially stunned and surrounded by three people. Pop pop pop.

Idk, maybe it works. I am still of the opinion that this dept needs to train for these situations and similar scenarios no matter what tools are in their bag.

 

[crazymjb]

News flash... leos carry guns cause sometimes they need to usr them.

Mike

Sent from my cell phone with a tiny keyboard and large thumbs...

 

[GPP]

You think using a taser at point blank range while grappling is a viable option? Really?

At 23 seconds the arm bar should have been sudden, immobilizing, and attached to the cuff.
Between 23 and 54 seconds is where the problem is: He does not know how to handle the situation.
By 54 seconds it is clear the only thing this guy knows how to do is grade school wrestling.
Everything after that is pure survival instinct.

When in that sequence would the taser have been used? Stun gun maybe but I'm guessing the energy would dissipate through both of them while grappling.

BUT. I do agree that he should have had a non-lethal alternative at hand; I just don't think a taser would have solved anything in this instance. This LE clearly did not train for this eventuality and did not know how to handle the situation. I'm also not saying that this is an EASY situation to de-escalate and "handle". On the contrary: It is extremely difficult. That is why the training is so beneficial.

The taser should have been used WELL before they began grappling. It shouldn't have gotten to the point where they were grappling, that's what the taser and OC is for. I can't account for the officers ground fighting skills, but clearly he was outmatched. That part I agree on, he was wrong to mix it up with the guy, he should have waited for back up. That may be an experience issue, I don't think the cop thought he could take this guy one on one, but jumped in anyways. Things like that you learn from getting your face kicked in a few times.
And I suggest trying to control one of your friends that is non compliant with an arm bar. See if you can put it on him, and keep it on him while he fights.

 

[GJH86]

I see the debate and where it is going, so to completely screw it up I'll offer this: why not disengage, create distance and go to a different force option once he relizes (prior to knee strike) its heading down a bad path? Its easy to shove someone away from you when you have them from behind (enter terrible jokes here, I know the wording is suggestive).

A baton (the FF was CLEARLY level 4/physically assaultive) strike or two MAY have turned the tides. If, when you disengage, the dude flees then it turns into chase-a-drunk which is usually an easy "win". I will confess that I only watched the video and did not read the article; did he have OC? If not, why not? Isn't that standard issue stuff nowadays? It is here in lovely MA.

I'm sorry to monday morning QB but the LEO was terrible at hand-cuffing proceedure. He had the advantage AND a wrist to work with. Once that first cuff goes on you can usually use it to your advantge (usually, not always). I agree with some posters about training being an issue. Perhaps he had never been in a donny-brook before. They are always ugly but if you are losing, escape and reassses if you can; I think he could before he decided to pull the knee strike-grapple move. Just my $0.02

 

[GPP]

I see the debate and where it is going, so to completely screw it up I'll offer this: why not disengage, create distance and go to a different force option once he relizes (prior to knee strike) its heading down a bad path? Its easy to shove someone away from you when you have them from behind (enter terrible jokes here, I know the wording is suggestive).

A baton (the FF was CLEARLY level 4/physically assaultive) strike or two MAY have turned the tides. If, when you disengage, the dude flees then it turns into chase-a-drunk which is usually an easy "win". I will confess that I only watched the video and did not read the article; did he have OC? If not, why not? Isn't that standard issue stuff nowadays? It is here in lovely MA.

I'm sorry to monday morning QB but the LEO was terrible at hand-cuffing proceedure. He had the advantage AND a wrist to work with. Once that first cuff goes on you can usually use it to your advantge (usually, not always). I agree with some posters about training being an issue. Perhaps he had never been in a donny-brook before. They are always ugly but if you are losing, escape and reassses if you can; I think he could before he decided to pull the knee strike-grapple move. Just my $0.02

Look at that!!! Common sense! Well done! You are right on the ****ing money. He should have disengaged, kept him in sight, and awaited backup. No idea what he had in regards to less than lethal, OC, Taser would have been the go to items, batons, not so much. Batons seem to piss people off more than anything, and you run the risk of bashing the guys brains in. Why any PD still allows batons is beyond me, they have served their purpose, and need to go the way of the dodo. Trying to control a subject, one on one, that isn't compliant is very difficult, trying to cuff him one on one is stupid. I'd like to know how many years the kid had on the job.

 

[*chris*]

That part I agree on, he was wrong to mix it up with the guy, he should have waited for back up..

The cop was off duty, asked the fruitcakes filming to dial 911 and when had no indication of doing anything helpful, had to finish off the situation.

I don't wrestle cops cause I think there is a good chance I could get shot, why is this so difficult?

Chris

 

[GPP]

The cop was off duty, asked the fruitcakes filming to dial 911 and when had no indication of doing anything helpful, had to finish off the situation.

I don't wrestle cops cause I think there is a good chance I could get shot, why is this so difficult?

Chris

The cop was working a detail. On duty. The cop absolutely should have awaited back up. He instead chose to mix it up with the guy, and the end result is what we have here.
And you're right, it isn't difficult to grasp the concept that wrestling cops could lead to perforation , but some people still do it.

 

[*chris*]

The cop was working a detail. On duty. The cop absolutely should have awaited back up. He instead chose to mix it up with the guy, and the end result is what we have here.
And you're right, it isn't difficult to grasp the concept that wrestling cops could lead to perforation , but some people still do it.

Stand corrected on the backup, he didn't seem to have any way to call for backup so my assumption. The guy is a perfect example of PSGWSP...

Chris

 

[bigblue]

Look at that!!! Common sense! Well done! You are right on the ****ing money. He should have disengaged, kept him in sight, and awaited backup. No idea what he had in regards to less than lethal, OC, Taser would have been the go to items, batons, not so much. Batons seem to piss people off more than anything, and you run the risk of bashing the guys brains in. Why any PD still allows batons is beyond me, they have served their purpose, and need to go the way of the dodo. Trying to control a subject, one on one, that isn't compliant is very difficult, trying to cuff him one on one is stupid. I'd like to know how many years the kid had on the job.

Agreed and in this case the LE already chased the guy down at least one block. He should have realized at that 24 second mark that going "ground & pound" wasn't going to work and disengaged. As you said GPP, this is a skill learned from experience.

I also agree that move combined with a less than lethal alternative would have turned this into just another drunk groom.

"Don't taze me bro"

See? We CAN agree on a solution.

Sidenote: While at Syracuse in the mid 90's, I saw three (DRUNK) football players (250#+) take on an LEO outside a campus bar and nobody got shot. One player tackled the LEO and brought him to the ground while the other two proceeded to join in. No shots fired: The LE luckily didn't panic and gained control just as backup arrived. Different situation, different results.

Oh, and in true SU fashion: Community service all around.

 

[GPP]

Agreed and in this case the LE already chased the guy down at least one block. He should have realized at that 24 second mark that going "ground & pound" wasn't going to work and disengaged. As you said GPP, this is a skill learned from experience.

I also agree that move combined with a less than lethal alternative would have turned this into just another drunk groom.

"Don't taze me bro"

See? We CAN agree on a solution.

Sidenote: While at Syracuse in the mid 90's, I saw three (DRUNK) football players (250#+) take on an LEO outside a campus bar and nobody got shot. One player tackled the LEO and brought him to the ground while the other two proceeded to join in. No shots fired: The LE luckily didn't panic and gained control just as backup arrived. Different situation, different results.

Oh, and in true SU fashion: Community service all around.

Experience is key! I'd be interested to see what comes out of this whole deal, in regards to his department policies/procedures etc. And I'm sure there will be a civil suit, but that's a given pretty much no matter the scenario. Too bad the FF got killed, a shitty way to start your new marriage ( or perhaps a clever way out of one! Too soon?)
The LE in Syracuse gained control of 3 football players????. Are you sure it wasn't Dick Marcinko dressed up as a cop or something????

 

[bigblue]

I didn't say he gained physical control of the three players, just the situation. He subdued the big dude on the ground and probably got lucky the other two weren't willing to help their guy out once the tide turned. LE got his ass beat pretty good before that and needed an ice bath for a few days. Nothing broken far as I knew.

I can't imagine being in that situation, coming out, and knowing that those players were going to get off with some time at the local shelter. Then going to a game and rooting for them to win.

 

[GPP]

I didn't say he gained physical control of the three players, just the situation. He subdued the big dude on the ground and probably got lucky the other two weren't willing to help their guy out once the tide turned. LE got his ass beat pretty good before that and needed an ice bath for a few days. Nothing broken far as I knew.

I can't imagine being in that situation, coming out, and knowing that those players were going to get off with some time at the local shelter. Then going to a game and rooting for them to win.

It sucks lol. I've had my ass kicked a few times in my career, and it blows lol. When I first got on the job, we didn't have pepper spray or tasters, I had a ****ing PR-24. Possibly the most useless piece of kit ever invented ( unless of course you're William ****ing Shatner!)I've had my head split open by a guy I had gotten one cuff on, we proceeded to beat the living shit out of each other for about 6 or 7 minutes, he hit me so many times in the head with my own handcuffs it wasn't even funny. Well it was kind of funny after a bunch of stitches and beers. It's unfortunately part of the job. But this crap we are seeing so much of lately, 6 guys bundling 1 guy, shooting guys with canes etc, I don't get it either. LE has taken a bizarre change, there's no doubt. Most new LEOs are from the everyone gets a trophy generation, and it absolutely shows. They have balls when it's 4 on 1, but in reality, are hung like a church mouse when it's 1 on 1.

 

[bigblue]

Fights were a regular occurrence outside bars around closing time in those days. This clearly wasn't the first go around for the LE in question.

That bar is no longer in operation for a laundry list of violations. Not the least of which being a player tossing somebody through a plate glass window. While drinking underage.

SU was a big party school; still is.

 

[GPP]

Fights were a regular occurrence outside bars around closing time in those days. This clearly wasn't the first go around for the LE in question.

That bar is no longer in operation for a laundry list of violations. Not the least of which being a player tossing somebody through a plate glass window. While drinking underage.

SU was a big party school; still is.

It seems to me that LE that work IVO colleges, have a decent grasp of discretionary policing, where most campus PDs are an absolute crapshoot. When I was younger, I definitely enjoyed a good bar fight and brouhaha. But it seemed people were more apt to consider it like a hockey fight in those days, if that makes sense. Nowadays, forget it. Everyone wants to sue everyone.

 

[alan226]

Pix of the LEO involved in the fight.

The firefighter looks like he had done some wrestling in the past judging from the way he reversed himself and got out of the hold the LEO had him in. FWIW, there is something floating around that the F/F did some MMA fighting. FWIW

 

[bigblue]

It certainly looked like classic ground n pound to me: Far past what your average frat boy fight develops into.

 

[Texas Expat]

Follow up:

Cop has been cleared of charges:

Last month, the Jackson County Prosecutor's Office declared that Hubbard, who was seriously injured during the fight, would not be criminally charged in the shooting.
A grand jury issued a no-true bill, which means that the case is closed according to the prosecutors officer.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...hocking-cellphone-footage-moment-emerges.html