lol profit motive is not a big deal, in all seriousness. I used to believe it was, but it really isn’t. Even these days the ATF has actually pushed hard-core collectors into getting an 01/07 because they’re doing so much traffic, that they would rather have them be licensed as an FFL than just have them floating around in the breeze. We’ve had at least one person who is a collector on this very board, who was basically strongly suggested by the ATF that they become a dealer, in order to facilitate the type of activity they were doing….. in other words, if you horse trade guns often enough, you’re basically a dealer…. because at some point or another, your facilitating lots of economic activity around guns. It’s not a very high bar to reach anymore..
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Home FFL In Massachusetts
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Makes sense, I wasn’t aware of this either. If someone is buying and selling a lot, without a license, it behooves the ATF to get them licensed. This forces record keeping requirements (especially in states that otherwise don’t require records for private transactions) and let’s them inspect every 12mo. I thought the writer and journalist option went away, but I never looked much into it.
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This was explicitly mentioned in an ATF ruling letter. Prior to that letter, all one needed was a consulting relationship with an FFL, gunwriter, etc. to receive firearms interstate without need for an FFL. The ruling change that so that only W2 employees may engage in direct non-FFL temporary transfers, 1099 employees and volunteers (yes, the ATF used that term in the ruling, so good bye profit motive) now are required to get an FFL. So gone are the days of finding crates of 1911s in my hotel room when coming out of the shower
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dcmdon
NES Member
Nope. The SOT is necessary to make the gun. Or pay the $200 stamp on a per gun basis. Once the gun is made you don't have to pay the SOT. The SOT is charged to MAKE or transfer a gun. Not to keep it.
Read the regs Rob. I know you are smarter than me. ha.
dcmdon
NES Member
If you have an FFL in your home, you don't want to really do retail sales. You want to do mail order.
When I had my FFL out of my home in CT, I could to retail transfers. But I chose not to. In fact I chose not to sell new guns at all. For the most part.
It's just not worth my time to make $50 on a Glock. I did AWB compliance conversions and made $600 on a SCAR for example.
or I bought demo suppressors from suppliers at lower than wholesale and sold them out of state.
You don't want to do retail NFA sales. Believe me. It's an enormous pain in the ass having the customer check in with you every month waiting for the form 4 to clear.
If you sell it out of state, the gun transfers on a Form 3 to the local dealer in a few days and then that guy has to deal with the customer checking in every month.
dcmdon
NES Member
Nope. Zero contact.
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Thanks - new info to me. Homework assignment.
As to "post 86 dealer samples" - are you allowed to keep those based only on an 01 FFL without SOT? I know you have to surrender the Post 86 sample or transfer to another dealer if you go out of the business.
Now, what is the process to remove someone from an NFA trust? One of the three trustees on my trust moved to RI and the ATF rejected a form 1 listing all of us because they seemed unable to deal with two different CLEOs listed, plus the trustee can not possess the SBR (soon to be SBRs) under state law.
You guys just blew my mind with this new information! Let me apologize in advance, I am not an expert so I may say something that does not make sense, lol.
In any case, I have been doing business as a long-standing mail order only business (close to 30 years) and have a Fed tax number and file taxes for my business. I don't do allot of business and only had a little over $5k in revenue last year. I have never sold a gun but have sold war related and military items.
The gist of what I am reading from these past few days is it might be possible to get an 07 FFL in Massachusetts with a mail order business, is that right?
Has any body done that? Yes, as I recall looking it over weeks ago, you are required to send a copy of CLEO 07 portion of the form to your local LEO. I'm wondering what the local LEO could do to keep your 07 FFL from getting disapproved? I didn't think it was a requirement for the local LEO to "approve" or "disapprove" an 07 application to the Feds as much as it would be nice for the local police to know where 07 activities could be conducted or respective items associated with an 07 FFL could be stored. You know, for police safety or whatever "excuse" the gun grabbers used to get this action implemented by an applicant. I guess I'm asking what issues are known to exist with notifying your local LEO when you apply for an 07 FFL?
Thanks in advance and good posts!
In any case, I have been doing business as a long-standing mail order only business (close to 30 years) and have a Fed tax number and file taxes for my business. I don't do allot of business and only had a little over $5k in revenue last year. I have never sold a gun but have sold war related and military items.
The gist of what I am reading from these past few days is it might be possible to get an 07 FFL in Massachusetts with a mail order business, is that right?
Has any body done that? Yes, as I recall looking it over weeks ago, you are required to send a copy of CLEO 07 portion of the form to your local LEO. I'm wondering what the local LEO could do to keep your 07 FFL from getting disapproved? I didn't think it was a requirement for the local LEO to "approve" or "disapprove" an 07 application to the Feds as much as it would be nice for the local police to know where 07 activities could be conducted or respective items associated with an 07 FFL could be stored. You know, for police safety or whatever "excuse" the gun grabbers used to get this action implemented by an applicant. I guess I'm asking what issues are known to exist with notifying your local LEO when you apply for an 07 FFL?
Thanks in advance and good posts!
CLEO approval isn't required, only notification. That doesn't mean he can't make you life difficult or find a reason to shut you down. Some towns have limits on home businesses but some tend to "overlook" those if the business isn't notable. So be sure of where you stand, you know your area far better than anyone else on NES
You can certainly get the 07 in MA and just do mail order / online activities w/ no firearms sales to MA customers directly. I’m in week 3 now of having submitted my 07 and the ATF agent that guided me through the process and answered all the questions I had went over how some FFLs don’t deal with the state and derive profits from Gunbroker and other similar venues, selling NFA items out of state, etc.
Ultimately, in MA it’s about zoning. The ATF is not prohibited from granting an FFL to a non-commercially zoned business but the one answer I consistently received is that they will not. Now, how much investigating they’ll do into the zoning and what they’ll apply to your application can vary.
I also got the sentiment that they don’t really care about you growing your personal collection so as long as you do it the right way and at least try to derive revenue from your 07 activities. There is no magic number for profits or amount you need to sell.
dcmdon
NES Member
Exactly, yes.
Though if you get a written OK from your town's "code enforcement officer" or the town attorney acknowledging that they know about your business plans and acknowledge that it fits within the towns "Home Occupation" guidelines, then the ATF has no issues. I've helped multiple people get home FFLs this way.
Interstate silencer sales are a great way to make money and generate transactions for you A&D book.
1)they take up little to no room in the safe.
2) You can make decent money per unit
3) Form 3 clears in a few days allowing you to transfer the item to the local FFL, so you don't have to field "did it get approved" calls from the buyer for the next 9 months.
4) No face to face interaction with the buyer. (He never comes to your home)
I was tempted to go this route with the home based FFL. My town insisted the CLEO would have to sign off on it even though no bylaws or ordinances existed against firearms. I think they were confused about the FFL vs the state license. I ended up finding a cheap space close to home after looking for two months so it ended well after all.
So doing some research on my local zoning laws and I came up with this for a “Home Occupation”
“The use of a portion, not to exceed 35% of the available floor space of a dwelling, or one accessory building, not to exceed 800 sq. ft., by a resident engaged in a customary home occupation, which may be for gainful purposes, providing the materials and equipment used do not create a nuisance.
Noise and other objectionable characteristics shall not extend beyond the limits of the lot.”
In my opinion if it’s all online, out of state, or selling to other FFL’s then it classifies as a home occupation.
I asked my towns zoning official and they asked if I wanted to come to a town meeting. I’m assuming I’d have to get the Chief to give his blessing for this to happen.
“The use of a portion, not to exceed 35% of the available floor space of a dwelling, or one accessory building, not to exceed 800 sq. ft., by a resident engaged in a customary home occupation, which may be for gainful purposes, providing the materials and equipment used do not create a nuisance.
Noise and other objectionable characteristics shall not extend beyond the limits of the lot.”
In my opinion if it’s all online, out of state, or selling to other FFL’s then it classifies as a home occupation.
I asked my towns zoning official and they asked if I wanted to come to a town meeting. I’m assuming I’d have to get the Chief to give his blessing for this to happen.
dcmdon
NES Member
This is what I've been saying all along. Done at a low level of intensity, this easily fits into the home occupation definition in all town's zoning regs.
When you do you application, you want to use the following type language to show your activities will have no impact.
There will be zero increase in
1) traffic
2) noise
3) dust
4) effluent
5) garbage
There will be no signage.
In summary, there will be no activity that detracts from the residential character of the neighborhood.
The PD has no actual statutory authority when it comes to
1) zoning per the town
2) the FFL application per the ATF
However, towns seem to want to talk to the cops, as if they are the experts on this. It's stupid, but usually harmless.
No, with the 02/07 FFL. The state dealer license is just that, a state license. Not a federal one. https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartIV/TitleI/Chapter269/Section10A
“Section 10A. Any person, other than a federally licensed firearms manufacturer…”
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What is interesting about this law is it does not require the FFL be a licensed SILENCER manufacturer - just a federally licensed firearms manufacturer. Which means an 07 without an SOT cannot engage in dealing in suppressors, but can possess them under state law. Barring, of course, one of those "we know what the law means even though it does not say that" court decisions. And, it does not require a MA dealer's license to trigger the exemption.
Yes. Fair warning though, in my experience, if you ask the FRB as of late, they'll tell you that you need the MA state dealer license no matter what to operate as an FFL. This, of course, is not the law and something BATFE will and does ignore. If you operate your FFL as a sole proprietor, you do technically "own" the silencer. As an 07/02, you can also technically manufacture silencers for "research and development" purposes, which means building, testing, etc. so as long as they are not for export and you aren't sharing the schematics/assembling process with anyone else. You can get a lot of mileage out of the 07/02 without ever involving the state.
Any FFL that doesn't also have a state license has these restrictions, home-based or not. Even the AWB exemption is murky because it's presupposed off the idea that if you have inventory that violates the AWB, you are going to be selling to an AWB exempt individual like LEO w/ arresting powers. Yet if you go sole-prop, you "own" the inventory and don't have to 4473 yourself anything, just FA-10 once you sign it out of your BB. Further, the state doesn't really address what you can do under the FFL, only what the MA license limits you to. There are plenty of 01s that have "AWs" in inventory that they sell online, out of state.
Big one is obviously retail sales. That's a no across the board because you can't get MIRCS w/ an FFL and anything that is a firearm in-state must go through MIRCS/FA-10.
Also: My IOI told me that, upon inspection, if they found any assault weapons that I personally 4473 to myself, they would have to notify the state since part of having the FFL is complying with state law. They didn't say what would happen if I was a sole prop and technically "owned it" as an 07. But just having it in inventory wouldn't trigger any violations so as long as it was accounted for during inspection.
I think the way to look at the AWB exemption is that your FFL is exempt from AWs as defined by the state (and, by extension, the dealer license). Of course, there isn't much in the way of rules as to what you can do with the inventory, how you evaluate it, etc. per the ATF so as long as its accounted for during inspection. Just have to follow the rules of signing it in and out of your BB.
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