Hornady Handgun Hunter 9mm +P

[Agnotology]

So I've been paying a bit more attention to bullet velocities
I saw this.

Hornady Handgun Hunter 9mm Luger Ammo +P 115 Grain MonoFlex Lead Free

Hornady Handgun Hunter 9mm Luger Ammo +P 115 Grain MonoFlex at Target Sports USA with free shipping available. Enjoy deals on 9mm Luger ammo for sale.|^||^|

www.targetsportsusa.com

+P 115 grain 9x19 advertised velocity of 1100 fps. Seems low. Like, 150-200 fps low. Maybe a typo? Let's check Hornady's website.

9mm Luger +P 115 gr MonoFlex® Handgun Hunter® - Hornady Manufacturing, Inc

...

www.hornady.com

Nope, same advertised speeds out of a 4" test barrel.



Well, lets look at their non +P ammo with a similar projectile.

Hornady Critical Defense 9mm Luger Ammunition 115 Grain Flex Tip Expanding - 90250

Hornady Critical Defense 9mm Luger Ammo 115 Grain FTX at Target Sports USA with free shipping available. Enjoy deals on 9mm Luger ammo for sale online|^||^|

www.targetsportsusa.com

1135 FPS out of the same 4" test barrel.


Can someone explain "+P" when their standard pressure loads are more powerful? It has to be a typo or something, right?



Other true 1 to 1 projectiles show an increase in velocity.... but nothing like what you'd expect in terms of +P.

9MM Luger 135 gr FlexLock® Critical Duty® - Hornady Manufacturing, Inc

...

www.hornady.com

9MM Luger +P 135 gr FlexLock® Critical Duty® - Hornady Manufacturing, Inc

Designed to meet the needs of those who demand superior barrier penetration and prefer a full-size handgun for their personal protection. Critical Duty® is loaded with the tough Hornady® FlexLock® bullet that delivers barrier blind performance when s...

www.hornady.com

1010 fps standard 9mm, 1070 fps in +P 4" barrel test length. 5.94% increase in MV

9mm Luger 124 gr XTP® Hornady BLACK® - Hornady Manufacturing, Inc

...

www.hornady.com

9mm Luger +P 124 gr XTP® American Gunner® - Hornady Manufacturing, Inc

...

www.hornady.com

1110 fps to 1175 fps 4" barrel test length. 5.85% increase in MV


Why are these "defense" and "hunting" loads so anemic? I could understand maybe the Monoflex vs FTX because a equal mass but lower density projectile requires more of the space inside the case. But that isn't the case, and the two projectiles have identical sectional densities.

I know Hornady makes some great projectiles, but their factory loadings seem... well, crap. I feel like as time goes on, muzzle velocities have gone down. Is it cost savings? Or is this all normal and I'm reading too much into it?

 

[Parker Schreiber]

Can someone explain "+P" when their standard pressure loads are more powerful? It has to be a typo or something, right?

Since you are comparing a lead-free bullet to a antimony-lead bullet, I'd assume the claims are reasonably accurate.

Other true 1 to 1 projectiles show an increase in velocity.... but nothing like what you'd expect in terms of +P.

Why are these "defense" and "hunting" loads so anemic? I could understand maybe the Monoflex vs FTX because a equal mass but lower density projectile requires more of the space inside the case. But that isn't the case, and the two projectiles have identical sectional densities.

I know Hornady makes some great projectiles, but their factory loadings seem... well, crap. I feel like as time goes on, muzzle velocities have gone down. Is it cost savings? Or is this all normal and I'm reading too much into it?

I think you may be expecting too much from +P. An increase of 10% in pressure isn't going to yield a 10% increase in velocity. My current self-defense load is Underwood 147gr +P JHP. Their published data for the +P shows a muzzle velocity of 1125 vs 1050, which is about 7%, but the rounds use different projectiles. I'm not sure what length barrel Underwood uses for their claim, but the 147gr +P is supersonic out of my TNW (when that gun is working). With 124g HST, the difference is even smaller -- 1200 vs. 1150.

So while some factories may load "hotter" than others, in 9mm you can only expect a modest "bump" for +P or NATO spec rounds.

 

[gerrycaruso]

When my godson's dept. carried 45acp pistols, they switched from +P to standard pressure loads. They felt that the slight increase in velocity wasn't worth the wear & tear on the guns.

 

[PappyM3]

When my godson's dept. carried 45acp pistols, they switched from +P to standard pressure loads. They felt that the slight increase in velocity wasn't worth the wear & tear on the guns.

It’s generally not. As long as your JHP bullet is designed to expand at the velocity you’re producing, then 9mm on up cartridges have enough power in regular pressures to both penetrate and expand. Just have to make sure the bullet isn’t designed to expand at higher velocities.

 

[PappyM3]

So I've been paying a bit more attention to bullet velocities
I saw this.

Hornady Handgun Hunter 9mm Luger Ammo +P 115 Grain MonoFlex Lead Free

Hornady Handgun Hunter 9mm Luger Ammo +P 115 Grain MonoFlex at Target Sports USA with free shipping available. Enjoy deals on 9mm Luger ammo for sale.|^||^|

www.targetsportsusa.com

+P 115 grain 9x19 advertised velocity of 1100 fps. Seems low. Like, 150-200 fps low. Maybe a typo? Let's check Hornady's website.

9mm Luger +P 115 gr MonoFlex® Handgun Hunter® - Hornady Manufacturing, Inc

...

www.hornady.com

Nope, same advertised speeds out of a 4" test barrel.



Well, lets look at their non +P ammo with a similar projectile.

Hornady Critical Defense 9mm Luger Ammunition 115 Grain Flex Tip Expanding - 90250

Hornady Critical Defense 9mm Luger Ammo 115 Grain FTX at Target Sports USA with free shipping available. Enjoy deals on 9mm Luger ammo for sale online|^||^|

www.targetsportsusa.com

1135 FPS out of the same 4" test barrel.


Can someone explain "+P" when their standard pressure loads are more powerful? It has to be a typo or something, right?



Other true 1 to 1 projectiles show an increase in velocity.... but nothing like what you'd expect in terms of +P.

9MM Luger 135 gr FlexLock® Critical Duty® - Hornady Manufacturing, Inc

...

www.hornady.com

9MM Luger +P 135 gr FlexLock® Critical Duty® - Hornady Manufacturing, Inc

Designed to meet the needs of those who demand superior barrier penetration and prefer a full-size handgun for their personal protection. Critical Duty® is loaded with the tough Hornady® FlexLock® bullet that delivers barrier blind performance when s...

www.hornady.com

1010 fps standard 9mm, 1070 fps in +P 4" barrel test length. 5.94% increase in MV

9mm Luger 124 gr XTP® Hornady BLACK® - Hornady Manufacturing, Inc

...

www.hornady.com

9mm Luger +P 124 gr XTP® American Gunner® - Hornady Manufacturing, Inc

...

www.hornady.com

1110 fps to 1175 fps 4" barrel test length. 5.85% increase in MV


Why are these "defense" and "hunting" loads so anemic? I could understand maybe the Monoflex vs FTX because a equal mass but lower density projectile requires more of the space inside the case. But that isn't the case, and the two projectiles have identical sectional densities.

I know Hornady makes some great projectiles, but their factory loadings seem... well, crap. I feel like as time goes on, muzzle velocities have gone down. Is it cost savings? Or is this all normal and I'm reading too much into it?

They might be catering to people who demand “+P” in their defensive loads, but don’t realize the extra velocity for they given bullet design will lead to over-expansion and reduced penetration. Those bullets are probably designed to expand well at non +P velocities.

I bet if they have a +P load designed for shorter barrels, then it will have closer to normal +P pressures in order to get velocity up to what it needs to be from a short barrel.

If you’re looking for hot 9mm, Underwood is a good go-to.

Shop Ammo - Handgun Ammo - Page 1 - Underwood Ammo

underwoodammo.com

If I were hunting with 9mm, for some reason, I definitely wouldn’t go with a JHP though, like Hornady’s offering. I’d get a true +P or +P+ Hard cast semi wad cutter or a Lehigh “penetrator”. Note, the Lehigh extreme penetrator doesn’t penetrate more than a hard cast. Just penetrates more than their defender.

When you have a bullet that retains its shape and mass, like hard cast etc, they can take full advantage of the higher velocities and simply penetrate deeper. Which is necessary for big game animals when you may have a quartering shot or something.

Underwood offers a 115gr penetrator +P+ at 1300 fps.

9mm Luger +P+ 115gr. Xtreme Penetrator® Solid Monolithic Hunting & Self Defense Ammo

Underwood Ammo offers the most comprehensive and innovative Lehigh Defense™ Supersonic Lead Free Handgun Ammo for personal defense & hunting. Shop now 9mm Luger +P+ Copper ammo with Solid Monolithic.

underwoodammo.com

 

[SDG]

So I've been paying a bit more attention to bullet velocities
I saw this.

Hornady Handgun Hunter 9mm Luger Ammo +P 115 Grain MonoFlex Lead Free

Hornady Handgun Hunter 9mm Luger Ammo +P 115 Grain MonoFlex at Target Sports USA with free shipping available. Enjoy deals on 9mm Luger ammo for sale.|^||^|

www.targetsportsusa.com

9mm Luger +P 115 gr MonoFlex® Handgun Hunter® - Hornady Manufacturing, Inc

...

www.hornady.com

Nope, same advertised speeds out of a 4" test barrel.



Well, lets look at their non +P ammo with a similar projectile.

Hornady Critical Defense 9mm Luger Ammunition 115 Grain Flex Tip Expanding - 90250

Hornady Critical Defense 9mm Luger Ammo 115 Grain FTX at Target Sports USA with free shipping available. Enjoy deals on 9mm Luger ammo for sale online|^||^|

www.targetsportsusa.com

1135 FPS out of the same 4" test barrel.


Can someone explain "+P" when their standard pressure loads are more powerful? It has to be a typo or something, right?



Other true 1 to 1 projectiles show an increase in velocity.... but nothing like what you'd expect in terms of +P.

9MM Luger 135 gr FlexLock® Critical Duty® - Hornady Manufacturing, Inc

...

www.hornady.com

https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/handgun/9mm-luger-p-135-gr-flexlock-critical-

The handgun hunter round is very very soft shooting. I considered carrying it for a while because of what a pleasure it was out of a sig 365. But ultimately went with the fluted underwood variety Pappy mentioned.

In any case the +p and hunting is just marketing, it’s a very shootable cartridge and I’m sure performs just fine, but you’re not hunting much with it.

 

[Agnotology]

Since you are comparing a lead-free bullet to a antimony-lead bullet, I'd assume the claims are reasonably accurate.



I think you may be expecting too much from +P. An increase of 10% in pressure isn't going to yield a 10% increase in velocity. My current self-defense load is Underwood 147gr +P JHP. Their published data for the +P shows a muzzle velocity of 1125 vs 1050, which is about 7%, but the rounds use different projectiles. I'm not sure what length barrel Underwood uses for their claim, but the 147gr +P is supersonic out of my TNW (when that gun is working). With 124g HST, the difference is even smaller -- 1200 vs. 1150.

So while some factories may load "hotter" than others, in 9mm you can only expect a modest "bump" for +P or NATO spec rounds.

Based on the cross-section density, both projectiles take up the same volume.

It was my understanding that +P was 5% more powder, 10% more pressure? +P+ 10% more powder, 20% more pressure? Just as a rule of thumb.

I was more surprised at how their standard load is borderline subsonic, and their +P load doesn't even come close to being full-power loads. (33k PSI 35k CUP)

What exactly are you getting for 80 cents to $1 a round? I used to use a drill press to make my target FMJ ammo into HP's, much like the old screwdriver trick on lead .22LR. they'd go from 115 grains to 100 or so, pick up velocity and have great expansion. Sure, I doubt the step-bit and eyeballin' it was as consistent as proper hand loads, but shit, for $5 for a box of 50 HP's doing 1300 fps (crap chrono for air rifles) and more than sufficient accuracy for defense distances. Part of me wants to go back to this and see what's what.

They might be catering to people who demand “+P” in their defensive loads, but don’t realize the extra velocity for they given bullet design will lead to over-expansion and reduced penetration. Those bullets are probably designed to expand well at non +P velocities.

I bet if they have a +P load designed for shorter barrels, then it will have closer to normal +P pressures in order to get velocity up to what it needs to be from a short barrel.

If you’re looking for hot 9mm, Underwood is a good go-to.

Shop Ammo - Handgun Ammo - Page 1 - Underwood Ammo

underwoodammo.com

If I were hunting with 9mm, for some reason, I definitely wouldn’t go with a JHP though, like Hornady’s offering. I’d get a true +P or +P+ Hard cast semi wad cutter or a Lehigh “penetrator”. Note, the Lehigh extreme penetrator doesn’t penetrate more than a hard cast. Just penetrates more than their defender.

When you have a bullet that retains its shape and mass, like hard cast etc, they can take full advantage of the higher velocities and simply penetrate deeper. Which is necessary for big game animals when you may have a quartering shot or something.

Underwood offers a 115gr penetrator +P+ at 1300 fps.

9mm Luger +P+ 115gr. Xtreme Penetrator® Solid Monolithic Hunting & Self Defense Ammo

Underwood Ammo offers the most comprehensive and innovative Lehigh Defense™ Supersonic Lead Free Handgun Ammo for personal defense & hunting. Shop now 9mm Luger +P+ Copper ammo with Solid Monolithic.

underwoodammo.com

Underwood is always a win.

 

[kalash]

So I've been paying a bit more attention to bullet velocities

Why?

 

[Agnotology]

Why?

because I'm a numbers guy. I like tangibles. What am I getting for "X" product? Is it better than Y, or Z? Is it the more consistent projectile dimensions, therefor better accuracy? Muzzle velocities in terms of consistency? A bit more nut to the round? Maybe the bullet is solid copper or brass or some other non-standard composition?

This is because way too much in all US industry do companies put out a worse product than the previous generation and charge the same, or the same product and charge more, and bank on brand name and trust in that brand name to sell. SW did it with their Gen 1 M&P. Ford did it with their Ecoboost engines, and every diesel since the 7.3. Dodge (now RAM) did it with everything through the 3 or 4 ownerships changes that FUBAR'd their trucks and product line in general up. Apple, since it's inception. BMW when they gave up being the "Ultimate Driving Machine" with the E46. Mercedes in the late 90s through the 2000s where they stopped building to a standard, and began building to a price point, while actively advertising "Built to a standard, not to a price point.". Shit, they still do it with CLA GLA.

I'm the guy who has written records for each of my guns, how many rounds it fired, of what, oddball notations, base on a day to day range trip. A little over the top? Sure, but I'll know when something is off without having to "think" about when and what I shot and how it was doing that day.

 

[PappyM3]

Why?

Internal ballistics has an effect on external ballistics and external ballistics has an effect on terminal ballistics.

 

[kalash]

Velocity does not directly translate to good terminal JHP performance. You can easily have a poorly designed projectile that doesn't expand despite achieving high velocity, just like you can have a low velocity bullet that performs quite well.

 

[PappyM3]

Velocity does not directly translate to good terminal JHP performance. You can easily have a poorly designed projectile that doesn't expand despite achieving high velocity, just like you can have a low velocity bullet that performs quite well.

Yes. Velocity from internal ballistics does ultimately affect terminal ballistics. As mentioned previously in this thread, each JHP bullet is designed for particular ideal expansion velocity range. You seem to understand this, so I’m confused why you asked the OP why he was starting to pay attention to velocities.

 

[Parker Schreiber]

Based on the cross-section density, both projectiles take up the same volume.

From what I understand, the sectional density of a bullet is computed by dividing the weight of the bullet by the square of the diameter. So all 115gr 9mm bullets will have the same sectional density, but not the same overall density or the same volume.

It was my understanding that +P was 5% more powder, 10% more pressure? +P+ 10% more powder, 20% more pressure? Just as a rule of thumb.

9mm +P is defined by SAAMI as 10% more pressure, yes. +P+ is not defined except as "more than that."

What exactly are you getting for 80 cents to $1 a round?

What I feel I'm getting from Underwood or Winchester Ranger is a consistent predictable round that I'm willing to trust with my life. Whether you are willing to pay $1 per round for the commercial stuff is between you and your wallet -- it's fairly easy to find commercial JHP at half that price. In the last 4 years, I've shot fewer than 100 rounds of self-defense ammo, so I'm less price sensitive than for range ammo. FWIW, Underwood charges about the same for +P as standard pressure.

 

[Agnotology]

From what I understand, the sectional density of a bullet is computed by dividing the weight of the bullet by the square of the diameter. So all 115gr 9mm bullets will have the same sectional density, but not the same overall density or the same volume.

You are exactly correct. I took the term as meaning what it said literally and was wrong.

 

[gerrycaruso]

I don't think +P+ has a definite value. I was once given some 38 spl +P+. The dealer said he couldn't sell it because he didn't know what it was. It was slightly less powerful than 9mm +P.

 

[kalash]

Yes. Velocity from internal ballistics does ultimately affect terminal ballistics. As mentioned previously in this thread, each JHP bullet is designed for particular ideal expansion velocity range. You seem to understand this, so I’m confused why you asked the OP why he was starting to pay attention to velocities.

I just don't think velocity tells you anything without knowing how it plays with bullet design, and if you know the design and how it performs then you still don't need to worry about velocity.

 

[Soundwave]

Is +P worth it out of an AR-9?

 

[PappyM3]

Is +P worth it out of an AR-9?

As is being discussed, depends on the bullet. But not likely. If you are shooting a solid copper or hard cast bullet for deep penetration and barrier blindness, probably.

If you’re shooting JHP, not likely.

 

[whacko]

I'm not going to read thru it all.....

Bottom line is +p doesn't always equate to more velocity. Technically speaking it only refers to additional chamber pressure.....which....depending on the projo weight.....projo compisition.....and projo profile.....may not mean more velocity.

 

[Parker Schreiber]

Is +P worth it out of an AR-9?

You may find this article worth reading:

Self-Defense Ammo for Pistol Caliber Carbines - Lucky Gunner Lounge

Let's explore the best self defense ammo for pistol caliber carbines. How do common ammo loads perform in carbines vs pistols?

www.luckygunner.com

I run 147gr in both my TNW PCC (when it's working) and feel comfortable with either Underwood +P JHP or Winchester Ranger-T. If I find my MR920 "prefers" one over the other I'll stick with it.

 

[PappyM3]

You may find this article worth reading:

Self-Defense Ammo for Pistol Caliber Carbines - Lucky Gunner Lounge

Let's explore the best self defense ammo for pistol caliber carbines. How do common ammo loads perform in carbines vs pistols?

www.luckygunner.com

I run 147gr in both my TNW PCC (when it's working) and feel comfortable with either Underwood +P JHP or Winchester Ranger-T. If I find my MR920 "prefers" one over the other I'll stick with it.

Are you trying to make your 147gr go supersonic?