M60
NES Member
Atta boy Mike.Not sure what this means, but i smell anti doo doo. None of it has shit to do with preventing suicides.
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Atta boy Mike.Not sure what this means, but i smell anti doo doo. None of it has shit to do with preventing suicides.
You forgot ropes, asphalt and gravity.Suicide by gun is not an easy question to answer.
When England swapped from town gas to natural gas for cooking, suicides dropped. Some of that was from an overall drop in suicides. But some from the lack of ovens to stick your head into. (Town gas was very impu and had a lot of CO. That whole head in the oven thing makes no sense to us because we aren’t of that generation.)
But the question is foolish. Should we get rid of bridges, ravines, tall buildings, bathtubs?
The answer is suicide would drop if all guns were gone. Just like no more traffic accidents if we got rid of all of the cars.
I don’t agree that most suicides are on impulse. I think it’s actually the opposite.
The sudden ones I think are “shame suicides” where the person can’t face something.
Folks with mental illness have a longer path. I will say I was asked to go through this woman’s (who killed herself) PC to look for any assets or accounts. I also helped going through her papers looking for the same. Mental illness over the span of ten years brought her from a model employee to unemployable. At some point she realized she had six months of money left. She gave her cat away, paid up her bills and mortgage for 3 months in advance. Worked on her note to her lawyer. Checked Monster.com at 6 AM and took her life shortly there after. Reading through someone’s life (that I never met) really impacted me to my core.
Post script: when the guy who plowed her driveway was told about her passing he openly wept.
From time to time I think of her and how hopelessly alone she must have felt but I also believe she is in a better place now.
Fact is no matter if there is a gun in the home or not someone that wants to kill themselves will. You are an idiot because you don't understand debate. If guns had never been invented there would still be suicide.Ooohhh! Burnt! You got me.
I posted that (which supports your point) because no one was debating me on the facts. They just put in their tinfoil hats and said 'Merica, more or less.
First, please define "surplus" for me. Are you qualified, personally, to tell others if it's appropriate for them to end their own life when they're ready?My only point is that guns do contribute surplus suicide deaths in some unquantifiable amount.
What echo chamber? Maybe you missed the very real argument about the guys arrested for peaceably traveling to Maine over the weekend, but I assure you there are tons of disagreements in this forum. It's just that none seem to find your ideas in this thread persuasive - in part because they're "bolstered" by ad hom, moving goalposts, appeal to authority, etc.If you want this place to be an echo chamber, fine. But there is an amendment before the 2nd.
Even that's debatable. Canada implemented a handgun registry and saw a drop in handgun suicide. They also saw suicide by hanging rise at parity. Like 1:1 replacement
You can be pro-gun, yet not in favor of the rule of the gun. Things aren't always black and white, at least not to me.
Oh too true. But it's still a sham argument. It's a "if it saves just one child" type bullship argument. Again I'll go back to cars. Or high rise office buildings. If it saves just one life, shouldn't we ban both of them forever???? For just one life???
I just want to say that anyone on this thread that believes firearms do not contribute one surplus suicide death annually in the U.S. should probably refrain from joining the debate club.
In other words, you have no point.My only point is that guns do contribute surplus suicide deaths in some unquantifiable amount.
In other words, you have no point.
In his defense: it's also bogus to categorically state as fact that all suicides with guns would have happened anyway if guns weren't around.
It doesn't help our cause if we say stuff that's nonsense. Therefore, it's better to say, "eliminating legal gun ownership would have an almost immeasurable effect on the suicide rate" than to say, "anyone who wants to kill themselves is going to do it anyway"
Saying something like the latter just gives them something to latch on to that they can use to say "gun owners are wrong!!!"
Suicide by firearm is about 50% of total suicides in the US most years. Few are arguing they're not commonly used. The point of debate seems to be "without firearms, can we expect a meaningful change in total suicides?" The worldwide data is inconclusive.Lol. Are you guys really trying to argue that guns are not the leading method of suicide? The number is like 90% of suicide deaths are with a gun. It makes sense and it’s how I would do it if I were so inclined.
I’m not saying other methods aren’t available, but gun top the list by a landslide. I doubt there is much correlation between gun ownership and suicide, but STATISTICALLY you are more likely to die by suicide if you own a gun
Suicide Method | Number of Deaths |
---|---|
Total | 47,511 |
Firearm | 23,941 |
Suffocation | 13,563 |
Poisoning | 6,125 |
Other | 3,882 |
Suicide by firearm is about 50% of total suicides in the US most years. Few are arguing they're not commonly used. The point of debate seems to be "without firearms, can we expect a meaningful change in total suicides?" The worldwide data is inconclusive.
Table 2
Suicide by Method (2019)
Data Courtesy of CDC
Suicide Method Number of Deaths Total 47,511 Firearm 23,941 Suffocation 13,563 Poisoning 6,125 Other 3,882
Suicide by firearm is about 50% of total suicides in the US most years. Few are arguing they're not commonly used. The point of debate seems to be "without firearms, can we expect a meaningful change in total suicides?" The worldwide data is inconclusive.
My argument is "Who Cares?" It's your life, if you choose to end it in the most effective means at your disposal,, why not allow it. Hell, I'm all for Suicide Booths.I just want to say that anyone on this thread that believes firearms do not contribute one surplus suicide death annually in the U.S. should probably refrain from joining the debate club.
I'd say the worldwide data indicates that there wouldn't be be a meaningful decrease. The US has higher civilian gun ownership than any other county, by a wide margin. The US isn't the top in suicides and there are plenty of countries w/ strict gun control that have higher suicide rates than the US. South Korea, Russia, Belgium, Japan, we're neck & neck w/ some of the Scandinavian utopias, etc. Do guns make it easy? Sure. So do cars & garages (if I was going to do it that's how I'd do it). Does the fact that people use guns 50% of the time mean that homes w/ guns have a higher risk of suicide? I don't think you can say that.
Data in MA shows pills #1, and only about 10% succeed. 7,000+ attempts.I responded to many calls that turned out to be suicides and none used a gun. Most used a rope or pills but a few got very creative.
My biggest objection to the “if it saves just one life” argument is that it’s always presented in a vacuum.
Stupid example: If we banned cars, auto deaths would vanish. But a lot of people would die because they couldn’t get food or medical attention.
Banning guns would reduce some kinds of murder and suicide, but it would also increase some other kinds.
Even by the most conservative estimates there are several hundred thousand defensive uses of guns every year. The high end estimate is like 2.5 million. The truth is somewhere between the two.
I don’t know (and I think it’s unknowable) how many of those defensive gun uses would have been murders, but even if only 3% of the most conservative estimate would have been murders, that exceeds the current 12k murders with guns per year. If you use the high estimate, the percentage only needs to be 0.48% to exceed it.
Women are far more likely than men to attempt suicide, by a factor of three or four to one. Yet almost twice as many men die by suicide. What is your explanation for that? You seem to be an expert.