-
If you enjoy the forum please consider supporting it by signing up for a NES Membership The benefits pay for the membership many times over.
interesting cartridge, bottleneck parabellum
- Thread starter Coyote33
- Start date
This chambering has been around since the 1890s.
Considering it was largely replaced by 9mm, I can’t imagine it compares to .357sig in any way whatsoever.
ETA: according to what’s available for info on wikipedia, 357sig is anywhere from 25-50+% more powerful than 7.65x21
Considering it was largely replaced by 9mm, I can’t imagine it compares to .357sig in any way whatsoever.
ETA: according to what’s available for info on wikipedia, 357sig is anywhere from 25-50+% more powerful than 7.65x21
38ExtraSpecial
NES Member
IIRC there were basically 2 cartridges with almost the same dimensions but different specs based off of the pressure and intended firearm use.Just saw this cartridge today (from an NES WTS ad), and it was the first I remember seeing it. I wonder how it compares with the .357 Sig.
7.65×21mm Parabellum - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
One for the Mauser one for the Tokarev.
This is fairly similar to 7.62x25, which was also replaced by a 9mm cartridge (9x18). The Tokarev round was generally lighter, faster, and had more energy than its German cousin.
ETA: both these rounds were developed based on the original Mauser chambering.
greencobra
NES Member
- Joined
- Jul 2, 2011
- Messages
- 27,226
- Likes
- 26,725
is that case tapered? looks like it.
I figured pressure would be the key thing in play here. I was wondering about the actual dimensions. I tried looking to see if there are any photo comparisons of the two, but came up empty. I wonder if the people who came up with the .357 Sig looked at that old cartridge at all.
On another note, it would be cool if some current company came out with a Tokarev chambering for a modern designed gun. Maybe Ruger could do their fake 5.7 gun in that cartridge. Aren't the Tokaravs pretty "available" (surplus?) for not a bad price?
I believe the early Luger pistols were chambered in the .30 Luger. It's an interesting firearm and ammo combination, but it's hardly a powerhouse (not that I will volunteer to be shot with one, of course). The Ruger P89 was available with a .30 Luger conversion, which would probably be more of a collector item than a one-stop man-killer combination. With ammo prices as they were, it wouldn't make much sense economically to shoot .30 Luger vs. 9x19mm. Maybe in today's market, it would be a tie.
Obviously, the 7.65x21mm is 4mm shorter than the Tokarev (7.62x25mm) and the .30 Mauser (7.63x25mm). You can use either of the latter brass interchangeably, but Tokarev loads are higher pressure than the .30 Mauser. You can use .30 Mauser ammo in your TT33 and CZ52, but not 7.62x25mm ammo in your C96, etc.
My issue with the .357 SIG, is that it has such a short neck and getting adequate grip on the bullet can be a problem. You also need to use bullets with a straight profile to take full advantage of the limited neck contact.
Yes, it's quite common to still find surplus Tokarev ammo for sale. Odds are it's berdan-primed (hence, not very useful to reloaders) and it will probably split upon firing. Many cut down .223 Remington brass for Tokarev ammo, but make sure you use the proper shell holder. I figure, why bother as boxer-primed brass and ammo is in fairly decent supply.
Below: Surplus 7.63x25mm, .32-20 LSWC sized for Tokarev, .30 Carbine FMJ in 7.62x25mm
Obviously, the 7.65x21mm is 4mm shorter than the Tokarev (7.62x25mm) and the .30 Mauser (7.63x25mm). You can use either of the latter brass interchangeably, but Tokarev loads are higher pressure than the .30 Mauser. You can use .30 Mauser ammo in your TT33 and CZ52, but not 7.62x25mm ammo in your C96, etc.
My issue with the .357 SIG, is that it has such a short neck and getting adequate grip on the bullet can be a problem. You also need to use bullets with a straight profile to take full advantage of the limited neck contact.
Yes, it's quite common to still find surplus Tokarev ammo for sale. Odds are it's berdan-primed (hence, not very useful to reloaders) and it will probably split upon firing. Many cut down .223 Remington brass for Tokarev ammo, but make sure you use the proper shell holder. I figure, why bother as boxer-primed brass and ammo is in fairly decent supply.
Below: Surplus 7.63x25mm, .32-20 LSWC sized for Tokarev, .30 Carbine FMJ in 7.62x25mm
Attachments
Last edited:
38ExtraSpecial
NES Member
I’ve heard of guys building single shots based off that or similar wildcats.
Have you heard of the 22TCM? That’s probably the closest factory cartridge right now. It’s a small bullet but pretty cool. They offer 1911s and Bolt actions.
38ExtraSpecial
NES Member
Yes. I think Dillon makes a 10mm necked sown to 357 also.
There are a couple cool proprietaries
Swiss Army started issuing Lugers in 7.65 in 1901. “Pistole 1900” was the model designation, with updates in 1906 and 1929. It was the issue sidearm until the Sig 210 was adopted as “Pistole 49” in (wait for it) 1949. Most were built under license at Waffenfabrik Bern.
The P1900 replaced the 1889 revolver, which was chambered in an oddball 7.5mm. Switzerland liked its ammo weird.
IIRC the US bought a bunch to test around the same time, but never adopted it.
Years before the f*cking Germans went to it. LOL. (OK, to be fair, they were holding out for the 9mm variant, reasonably. Still f*cking Germans, though)
R
For what it's worth, TSUSA has the 7.63x25mm ammo in stock now.
www.targetsportsusa.com
Regarding .30 Luger, Ruger had a conversion for one of their earlier pistols...
7.63x25mm 30 Mauser Ammo | Target Sports USA - Ammo Deals
7.63x25mm 30 Mauser ammo for sale at Target Sports USA. Free shipping on bulk 7.63x25mm 30 Mauser ammunition for sale online at cheap discount prices.
www.targetsportsusa.com
Attachments
Tokarev (7.62x25mm) one of my favorite rounds to shoot, use to buy pennies per-round in 1200rd case (2) of these per wood crate. some of it is hot, probably machine gun ammo (i think its all just millitary).
Case base very similar to 223/556, some have trimmed and necked down 223/556 brass to make cases. solves primer issue.
Last edited:
Yes, you can make them from .223 Remington, but make sure you use the proper s/h so you don't rip through the rim.
With Prvi ammo being available, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to convert .223 Remington, IMO.
Of course, today as I say this, I found 5 pieces of .223 Remington with splits in the neck, so what did I do?
Turned them into 7.62x25mm! (If I shot .300 BLK, I'd turn them into this, then 7.62x25mm...)
Ye hypocrite!
With Prvi ammo being available, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to convert .223 Remington, IMO.
Of course, today as I say this, I found 5 pieces of .223 Remington with splits in the neck, so what did I do?
Turned them into 7.62x25mm! (If I shot .300 BLK, I'd turn them into this, then 7.62x25mm...)
Ye hypocrite!
Last edited:
