LEO's

[packingungal]

I have not had any bad experiences with LEO's, and I have known quite a few.

 

[MichaelJ]

To the OP ... tell your buddy to check back. Maybe "problems" he remembers have been worked back into the woodwork. Although I TRY not to take anything said on the internet personally, I also don't appreciate it when my colleagues screw it up for the rest of us. The best policy I have found is to not generalize ANY individual or profession or hobby. There are bad apples in every bunch and they will ALWAYS draw the initial attention...you just have to look and remember the rest of the apples in the basket...and the orange or two that sneaks in.

 

[delgrifith]

Here's the problem I have. Of course, the majority of cops are decent guys and gals. Unfortunately, the minority A-holes get a lot of attention. That's obvious.

But the double whammy in the whole thing is that when one of these lugs do something wrong, violate the law or whatever, there is apparently no peer pressure from the good ones to stop it. They immediately go into "protect their own mode," no matter what.

That just compounds the bad image.

If the stand up cops would actually stand up against the bad ones, the image could be changed.

It ain't going to happen though

It's been my experience that when a cop violates the law his co-workers do not know it until he/she is arrested or on leave during an IA investigation. I would also add that most Officers have no problem seeing their co-workers face the music for breaking the law. LE is held to a higher standard and everyone knows that when they take the oath. As far as having influence over co-workers, I have personally been able to convince several of them of the merits of civilian firearm ownership and how it's a constitutional right. Never forget that LE is a cross-section of the community and many have been beaten over the head with Sarah Brady type "stats" and just need to be given the correct facts.

 

[richc]

First and foremost, thank you everyone for listening. We may agree or disagree, but I fully respect your rights to your opinions. That's what it is all about.

Years ago I worked at Apple Computer. I was in tech support. It was a burn out job. Very few people lasted more than 18 months. Why??? Because no one every called you with good news. The callers were never happy. And, of course, as you were the voice of the company, it was your fault. People love to shoot the messenger.

I think many professions fall into this category. And, yes, law enforcement is one of them. When is it that we deal with LEO? When there is something wrong and we need help. When we do something wrong and are reminded, scolded or perhaps cited about our behavior/actions. For LEO it is a no win situation. People are not generally glad to see them.

And, of course, the internet is the perfect, anonymous vehicle to voice one's complaints. There are many that say things on an internet forum that they would never dare to say the same face to face. IMHO it is one of the negatives of this electronic world we live in.

Me... I've had great experiences with LEO in my life. Yup, I've been slapped with my share of speeding tickets... and deserved every one. More often, though, I've been let go with a verbal warning to slow down. I take responsibility for my actions.

I just wish we could all get along and be respectful. We share a passion that may be in jeopardy with our new administration. Rather than generalizing our anger towards an otherwise fine group of people, let's also respect what they do to protect the health and safety of our families and friends.

Thank you all for your different input. I hope we all learned. I know I did.

Thanks,

Rich

 

[gene]

And then again there are some of us who have had less than happy experiences with the police where the police were clearly in the wrong.

Yes, I've had good interactions with police, too... but there are a few times that left a VERY bad taste in my mouth. *shrug* I won't bother saying anything more. It's all been said.

Valid point!
In some cases they people had bad experiences for no good reason and they should continue to share. To some LE it's a job and others, it's a day to bust balls because something else might be going on in their lives.

 

[Major Blood]

Good post.

How about we take it one step further and extend this "non-generalizing, judge each on his own merits" sentiment to include the rest of the human race as well...couldn't hurt, right?

 

[DickWanner]

I have no problems with LEOs in at all. I have huge problems with the Blue Wall of Silence, the Blue Curtain, and corrupt LEOs. I always try my best to keep the two seperate.

 

[biff44]

Well, I think there is nothing but admiration for a public servant who is risking his life daily to protect us! We really do appreciate that.

The trouble comes from the old axiom: all power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. There is a feeling that there is sometimes overzealous use of the laws to back up questionable actions. The fact that the local police chief has sole discretion of issuing your license also rubs most the wrong way. The plethora of confusing laws in MA makes us all a little paranoid of LEO encounters!

Maybe if they changed their policies so that we became a "shall issue" state, and supported gun rights a little more, the tide would change.

 

[wolf223]

Good post.

How about we take it one step further and extend this "non-generalizing, judge each on his own merits" sentiment to include the rest of the human race as well...couldn't hurt, right?

we think alike. why is that?

 

[Admin]

we think alike. why is that?

 

[wolf223]

.... it's one of them things. seriously.

 

[MassMark]

To the OP ... tell your buddy to check back. Maybe "problems" he remembers have been worked back into the woodwork. Although I TRY not to take anything said on the internet personally, I also don't appreciate it when my colleagues screw it up for the rest of us. The best policy I have found is to not generalize ANY individual or profession or hobby. There are bad apples in every bunch and they will ALWAYS draw the initial attention...you just have to look and remember the rest of the apples in the basket...and the orange or two that sneaks in.

Absatively...

I wish more LEO's would post their experiences on NES, become green members and come to some meet-n-greets and shoots....

 

[Erebus]

It's just like any other social group, the bad ones get more attention. And the bad experiences are more memorable.

Take gun owners for instance. You never hear about a machine gun shoot that had no problems and raised money for a good cause. But we are going to hear for years about the one where the kid got killed as a reason to penalize all of us severely. How often do self defense stories make the news? Or stories of a gun owner protecting or assisting someone else? On the other hand on rare occasion that someone commits a crime it's front page news for days. And cited as a reason that no one should be trusted with guns.

Another group, Chicago politicians. We all know the bad ones but how many of the good ones have you heard about like....uh.... one sec.... uh....well maybe that wasn't a good example.

Unfortunately bad news sells better than good news so it gets the lion's share of the ink. The same reporter that is telling you today that only cops should have guns because they have some kind of secret Jedi training that makes them uniquely capable of safely handling guns will tell you tomorrow that none of them can be trusted. It's the nature of the news business unfortunately.

 

[FalArAk]

So bottom line is we shouldn't second guess the actions of any cop stories involving abuses of power,the thin blue line and corruption because their feelings get hurt and they won't post here ?

Makes sense to me !

 

[wolf223]

So bottom line is we shouldn't second guess the actions of any cop stories involving abuses of power,the thin blue line and corruption because their feelings get hurt and they won't post here ?

Makes sense to me !

no - the theory is that ALL cops, just like anybody else have their small share of a-holes.

just like NES has it's small share o a-holes.

 

[hunter46spring]

Me... I've had great experiences with LEO in my life. Yup, I've been slapped with my share of speeding tickets... and deserved every one. More often, though, I've been let go with a verbal warning to slow down. I take responsibility for my actions.

Thank you for that quote. IMHO alot of this is what it comes down to, people refusing to admitt they did something wrong..."The cop was a jerk, he gave me a ticket" rather than "Your right officer I was late to pick up my kid and I was speeding" or even just admitting to yourself you were in the wrong.

Now dont get me wrong there are officers who treat people poorly. I could make up excuses for them but thats all it would be, excuses. I consider myself a good cop. Have I yelled at someone screwing up and now they think I'm a jerk because of that one brief interaction with me? I am sure I have.

In my experience people who have a ongoing hatred for the police are people who are always dealing with the police in a negative way.... because of their own actions...police dont seek people out who are doing nothing wrong and say to themselves I am going to make this guy hate the police.

 

[FalArAk]

no - the theory is that ALL cops, just like anybody else have their small share of a-holes.

just like NES has it's small share o a-holes.

Nice.

Did you actually read the original post ?

 

[DevX]

I was just about to post this if anyone else hadn't. I have trouble finding sympathy for the profession when they can't seem to get out of their own way. They did a lot of the damage to themselves by, as a group, tolerating behavior they would arrest others for. When they turn in their PBA cards, special plates and wallet badges and take the ticket like the rest of us instead of winking "I'm on the job", then I will have some sympathy for this problem.

Also, as someone pointed out above, the folks at Mass Cops thumb their noses our way because we can't buy the things they can. How is that being professional?

ETA: Couldn't have had better timing...
http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=777018&postcount=10

Here's the problem I have. Of course, the majority of cops are decent guys and gals. Unfortunately, the minority A-holes get a lot of attention. That's obvious.

But the double whammy in the whole thing is that when one of these lugs do something wrong, violate the law or whatever, there is apparently no peer pressure from the good ones to stop it. They immediately go into "protect their own mode," no matter what.

That just compounds the bad image.

If the stand up cops would actually stand up against the bad ones, the image could be changed.

It ain't going to happen though

You guys have a safe house for your K9s?

 

[richc]

First, I've learned over time that police officers are great at observation. Go golfing with a cop... they will know where your ball lands every time. It is what they are trained to do. And they are damn good at it.

Second, they are excellent judges of character. The minute they detect the scent of bullshit you are done.

If you are honest, humble and polite, it is amazing how well you will be treated. I know. I can't tell you how many times I've been let go with a simple verbal warning to slow down. Treat the LEO with respect and there is a very good chance that you will be treated in a similar manner.

The moment an LEO sees any attitude, rude behavior or ridiculous lies your chances for lenient treatment are over. You've screwed the pooch, as they say. You wanna treat LEO's like they are dumb, and you will walk away with a citation or worse. Truth is it is human nature. Me thinks any of us would do the same if we were wearing a badge. Disrespectful behavior on our part begets disrespectful treatment from the other party. It is what it is.

So... bottom line... treat all people with respect, and you will likely be treated in kind. For those that don't treat you respectfully in return, feel sorry for them. They have a major cross to bear in life. Be thankful you are not in their shoes, as they will constantly do battle with others, rather than reaching mutually agreeable solutions.

Thanks again for listening.

Rich

 

[Major Blood]

 

[wolf223]

Nice.

Did you actually read the original post ?

si

So bottom line is we shouldn't second guess the actions of any cop stories involving abuses of power,the thin blue line and corruption because their feelings get hurt and they won't post here ?

Makes sense to me !

you have a dislike for LEO's - that's cool. you are entitlled to that.

 

[Hiltonizer]

One of my best friends of many years finally became a LEO a few years ago... he has stated to me on multiple inebriated conversations that the theory is valid:

A lot of cops became cops because they were bullies and high school, and it fit their style the best of any profession.

This is obviously not true in most cases, but the element is out there. I have had great experiences with LEO's, and experiences that make me believe this theory applies even more broadly.

I still however always give the benefit of the doubt, but when clearly unprofessional behavior is demonstrated, it should be made public so that the appropriate measures can be taken.

 

[MMF]

One of my best friends of many years finally became a LEO a few years ago... he has stated to me on multiple inebriated conversations that the theory is valid:

A lot of cops became cops because they were bullies and high school, and it fit their style the best of any profession.

This is obviously not true in most cases, but the element is out there. I have had great experiences with LEO's, and experiences that make me believe this theory applies even more broadly.

I still however always give the benefit of the doubt, but when clearly unprofessional behavior is demonstrated, it should be made public so that the appropriate measures can be taken.

I think that in a lot of cases it the people who were bullied in high school....Trying to get a little revenge.

 

[wolf223]

One of my best friends of many years finally became a LEO a few years ago... he has stated to me on multiple inebriated conversations that the theory is valid:

A lot of cops became cops because they were bullies and high school, and it fit their style the best of any profession.

This is obviously not true in most cases, but the element is out there. I have had great experiences with LEO's, and experiences that make me believe this theory applies even more broadly.

I still however always give the benefit of the doubt, but when clearly unprofessional behavior is demonstrated, it should be made public so that the appropriate measures can be taken.

I think that in a lot of cases it the people who were bullied in high school....Trying to get a little revenge.

i've been a bad-ass since my first hard-on. i joined the military

 

[Coyote33]

Hi all,

OK... I'm likely going to take some crap on this... but I truly believe in what I am about to say. I've debated with myself on whether to post this or not. But I think it is for the better of this community.

I've bought a number of items from LEO's recently. Every time it has been a wonderful experience. There are some great guys out there who share our passion, believe in our rights, and want to further the sport.

Last week I bought a rifle from an LEO in western Mass. I asked him if he spent much time on NES. He said that he tended to avoid the NES forums because of the way in which LEO's are often portrayed. This is a hard working family guy who takes his job seriously. He really gives a damn, and he takes what is said about LEO's to heart. But he avoids these forums because of the rants.

My point is that in every line of work there are good and bad. In general there are way more good than bad. But we tend to discuss and sensationalize the bad way more.

Remember there are real people behind those badges. They have a lot to offer, but if their chosen profession is repeatedly disparaged on this forum, they aren't likely to participate. I think we as a community lose out if that happens.

I'd just ask everyone to think about what they are posting, and the impact it might have on our fellow forum members.

Thanks for listening.

Rich

I agree. I say take it one step further. Just as everyone tries to bring someone else shooting, how about we reach out to the police to bring them here as well? I also told GOAL they should run special workshops for police with laws and other training. That way, when the time comes, the police will be more likely to go to bat for GOAL also. I'd imagine with the focus the NRA gives to law enforcement, and since the NRA claims that GOAL is their "Massachusetts arm", that maybe some funding could come in that direction. What do you think?

 

[Half Cocked]

When they turn in their PBA cards, special plates and wallet badges and take the ticket like the rest of us instead of winking "I'm on the job", then I will have some sympathy for this problem.

If you don't mind me asking...what do you do for work? Have you ever received "professional courtesy" in any way from someone else in your line of work?

Would you be complaining if you got pulled over for speeding tonight and got a verbal warning and no ticket? So...why can't the same officer, use the same discretion that he used on you, on a fellow officer?

Do you get mad when you are in a bookstore and the teacher in line in front of you get's a discount on the same book that you are paying full price on? Is that teacher also a public servant whose salary you are paying?

Just sayin.....

Also, as someone pointed out above, the folks at Mass Cops thumb their noses our way because we can't buy the things they can. How is that being professional?

Agreed!! If I could eliminate that site I would in a New York minute!!

 

[MMF]

If you don't mind me asking...what do you do for work? Have you ever received "professional courtesy" in any way from someone else in your line of work?

Would you be complaining if you got pulled over for speeding tonight and got a verbal warning and no ticket? So...why can't the same officer, use the same discretion that he used on you, on a fellow officer?

Do you get mad when you are in a bookstore and the teacher in line in front of you get's a discount on the same book that you are paying full price on? Is that teacher also a public servant whose salary you are paying?

Just sayin.....



Agreed!! If I could eliminate that site I would in a New York minute!!

Well a teacher getting a discount is hardly comparable to a leo getting let off for breaking the LAW.

 

[Half Cocked]

Well a teacher getting a discount is hardly comparable to a leo getting let off for breaking the LAW.

Yeah...speeding is a hell of a offense. Have you never got a verbal warning?

My point is about "professional courtesy" in general.

I never mentioned..nor would I...that a LEO should get a break on Criminal Offenses.

Simply was referring to speeding as is what I quoted and responded to.

 

[MMF]

Yeah...speeding is a hell of a offense. Have you never got a verbal warning?

My point is about "professional courtesy" in general.

I never mentioned..nor would I...that a LEO should get a break on Criminal Offenses.

Simply was referring to speeding as is what I quoted and responded to.

Your comparing a a discount at a book store to a ticket that could be in the hundreds of dollars. Not to mention that special treatment like that, contributes to the "i can do whatever i want" attitude SOME leo's have.

 

[Edmond Dantes]

I think we need to reexamine some of the things said. Yes, a lot of cops are descent. They are some of our Fathers, Brothers, Mothers, Sisters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts, and best Friends. But, the police officers and service men in New Orleans who went around confiscating guns were also someone's family and friends. Now you could say "But they were just following orders." And thats true. However, the gestapo were following orders from Hitler but does that make what they did OK? Now I'm not trying to equate LEOS with the gestapo but you have to ask yourselves what happened to the days when a cop would pull over a couple guys with open containers and just dump it out on the side of the road? Can every officer confidently say they have never gotten behind the wheel having had one too many? I doubt it. They made it home OK. Yet the feel an obligation to put some poor guy in the slammer and have him pay for thousands of dollars in legal council. How many officers have smoked a joint and then the next day wrecked some kid's future. I hung out with a campus police officer from UMASS last summer who used to confiscate booze from kids and then bring it back to his dorm room and partake in underage drinking. I was pulled over in August and the LEO gave me a $35 dollar ticket for a burnt out headlamp. I had my fog lamps on and the other headlight was fine. Seeing as I couldn't even tell from my driver's seat that the bulb was out, I could still safely operate the vehicle and I can't think of any conceivable way I could put someone else in danger. Yet I was cited 35 bucks and would have gotten 2 points on my insurance. Did I break the law? Sure. Is the law just? No, for all I know the light burnt out seconds before I was pulled over. There was no victim. Ought the presence of a victim be a litmus test for a crime being committed? Any potential victim situation eerily approaches a 1984, Minority Report type society. Some posters have said yes I've had run ins with police officers and yes I broke the law. That may be true. But ask yourself was the law you broke just. I also urge law enforcement to ask themselves the same question. Should you enforce laws you feel are unjust? Additionally, ask yourselves have I broke the laws I've been entrusted to enforce?


Now I hope this didn't come off as if I'm criticizing cops too much as that was not my intention. Conversely, I hope this post makes at least one person think.


If you don't believe me check this out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCf2OmKxOF0 (Try and ignore the hicks) and if you're a police officer ask yourself if you can see yourself breaking into an old lady's house and giving her black and blues cause she has a revolver in her hand. Ask yourself if you can see your friends and family stating that they would shoot americans for refusing to give up their guns. You may not see it in yourself or in your acquaintances but I'm sure the people in the video could have never seen themselves saying or doing that either.

I also hope some officers will weight in on some of my questions. Not to necessarily to defend your profession but I find it interesting attempting to understand how others think.