Let's put this 1911 Together.

[C-pher]

OK, so let's talk parts. Just because it's right here in front of me. I have questions about receivers.

I know that just about everyone has the same parts, and for the sake of argument, let's say everyone costs the same. What's right here in front of me, is Caspian. So I'm just going to ask questions about their frames.

On page 8 of the catalog. I'm sure that most people here have one. On page 8 and 9, they have three frames.

Basic, Recon, and Classic. OK, I know the difference from the Recon, but what's the difference between the two? And would I want a Government or a Commander. I think that I don't want an Officer because it's two short.

And, I think that I want my frame Stainless so I wouldn't have to do any finish work.

So, I'm guessing that I would want the Classic? I don't want the Recon because that accessory rail looks weird.

So, all things considered, I have a frame that I like. Now what???

What's the big deal between the integral plunger and the Plunger tube slot? What does one want and why?

I'm pretty sure that would want them to machine fit them for me.

Checkering? I'm thinking that's a good thing to have done if one were to get a receiver.

Then we have the beavertail cut. What's that? I thought that the frame already has a beavertail cut. Why is it extra?

Then, what's more common? The Clark or the Nowlin ramped barrel cut?

Then there's the Series 80 cut. Is that something that I have to worry about? Or are most parts kits Series 70.

Small Parts Installation, I'm thinking that it's worth the 9 bucks to have that done at the factory.

And that's my receiver questions.


On to the Slide.

Forged, Barstock, and External Extractor. What is the best? I would guess that you would prefer barstock. But it looks like with Caspian only has the Barstock in the 6" model. So I'm guessing that I would go with the 5" Government.

On the front of the slide, is there any good reason for one radius cut over another? Or is it for just looks?

I don't think that I care about going flat top or serrated flat top, unless that there's a STRONG argument to do so.

I think that I would get the ends beveled just because I like that smooth look.

And sight cuts... What's the point of the different cuts? I mean, I can see them, but there's so many cuts. And two cuts, the Bomar and the Rollo seem to have more cut out.

I just assumed that I would like to get the Novak Adjustable cut as that's what I hear the most about. But if there's a better choice like the Heinie, then let me know.

And I'm guessing that if you get a Novak rear, you would do the same in the front?

Let's get that all straight before we start talking Main Spring Housings and Grip safety and hammers and triggers.


So, let's review. Again, I'm just using Caspain because that's the catalog I have here in front of me.

Classic Receiver, Stainless Government 225.00
Let's say the Integral Plunger Tube 25.00
Machine Fit 25.00
Beavertail cut 16.50
Ramped Barrel cut 50.00
Small Part Installation 9.00
Forged Government Slide, Stainless 235.00
Bevel Package, 22.00
Maybe Front Serrations 40.00 ???
Rear Sight Cut 40.00
Front Sight Cut 22.00

Let's just say that if we're going to start saving, $710 is a good amount to save?

Does this all sound right?

 

[Dan S]

It looks like the difference between the regular and classic frames is the cut under the grips. The frames are not machined for beavertails unless specified, they are for the standard grip safety. Drop in beavertails look like crap, and don't feel anywhere as good. I'd go for the regular plunger tube, it makes any polishing on the flat sides of the frame Much easier. If you're building a .45 ACP, don't get a ramped barrel cut, the normal barrel works just fine. Don't bother with the series 80 cut, unless you want to carry it, most people pull the stuff out anyway.
For the slide, do you want adjustable sights? If so, Say BoMar! The Caspian cut looks best. Front sight dovetail allows a large variety of of options, easier, such as fiber optic inserts. Either the Novak or Heinie has front sights available in a wide selection. I'd get the reverse plug option, it makes using a bull barrel easy. As to the cocking serrations, what look do you like? The radius on the front of the slide, same thing.
Hope this helps a little bit.

 

[GTOShootr]

I have a Caspian slide without the radius. It is really meant for the hi-cap STI-type frames that have a dustcover that comes all the way out to the muzzle.

If you are fitting the slide to frame yourself, look into an STI brand slide. $260 for .45 with BoMar cuts and rear serrations. Having someone cut you matching front serrations would be cheap.

BTW, Dan S knows this stuff inside and out!!!

 

[JimConway]

OK, so let's talk parts. Just because it's right here in front of me. I have questions about receivers.

I know that just about everyone has the same parts, and for the sake of argument, let's say everyone costs the same. What's right here in front of me, is Caspian. So I'm just going to ask questions about their frames.

On page 8 of the catalog. I'm sure that most people here have one. On page 8 and 9, they have three frames.

Basic, Recon, and Classic. OK, I know the difference from the Recon, but what's the difference between the two? And would I want a Government or a Commander. I think that I don't want an Officer because it's two short.

The choice of Commander (3.5" barrel)or Government (5" barrel) is your personal choise. I Suggest that you get the basic frame. The classic is a siightly older design


And, I think that I want my frame Stainless so I wouldn't have to do any finish work.

I would also get the stainless

So, I'm guessing that I would want the Classic? I don't want the Recon because that accessory rail looks weird.

So, all things considered, I have a frame that I like. Now what???

What's the big deal between the integral plunger and the Plunger tube slot? What does one want and why?

This is a matter of personal choise. Either will work well

I'm pretty sure that would want them to machine fit them for me.

No. Have them hand fit it for you.

Checkering? I'm thinking that's a good thing to have done if one were to get a receiver.

You should checker or stipple the frame and the Main Spring Housing (25 lines per inch is great)

Then we have the beavertail cut. What's that? I thought that the frame already has a beavertail cut. Why is it extra?

The beavertail that you choose must match the frame, so the frame must be cut to exactly match.

Then, what's more common? The Clark or the Nowlin ramped barrel cut?

I see no reason for a ramped barrel, unless you were using either an aluminum or titanium frame

Then there's the Series 80 cut. Is that something that I have to worry about? Or are most parts kits Series 70.

You want to Series 70 cut. The series 80 cut is for a firing pin safety

Small Parts Installation, I'm thinking that it's worth the 9 bucks to have that done at the factory.
That is a good deal

And that's my receiver questions.


On to the Slide.

Forged, Barstock, and External Extractor. What is the best? I would guess that you would prefer barstock. But it looks like with Caspian only has the Barstock in the 6" model. So I'm guessing that I would go with the 5" Government.

Forged will work very well. The external extractor is again your choice

On the front of the slide, is there any good reason for one radius cut over another? Or is it for just looks?

Just looks

I don't think that I care about going flat top or serrated flat top, unless that there's a STRONG argument to do so.

I agree with you

I think that I would get the ends beveled just because I like that smooth look.

And sight cuts... What's the point of the different cuts? I mean, I can see them, but there's so many cuts. And two cuts, the Bomar and the Rollo seem to have more cut out.

The bomar and the Novak are the most common

I just assumed that I would like to get the Novak Adjustable cut as that's what I hear the most about. But if there's a better choice like the Heinie, then let me know.

Novaks are great

And I'm guessing that if you get a Novak rear, you would do the same in the front?

You do not have to. Both the same makes it easier

Let's get that all straight before we start talking Main Spring Housings and Grip safety and hammers and triggers.


So, let's review. Again, I'm just using Caspain because that's the catalog I have here in front of me.

Classic Receiver, Stainless Government 225.00
Let's say the Integral Plunger Tube 25.00
Machine Fit 25.00
Beavertail cut 16.50
Ramped Barrel cut 50.00
Small Part Installation 9.00
Forged Government Slide, Stainless 235.00
Bevel Package, 22.00
Maybe Front Serrations 40.00 ???
Rear Sight Cut 40.00
Front Sight Cut 22.00

Let's just say that if we're going to start saving, $710 is a good amount to save?

Does this all sound right?

 

[C-pher]

Thanks you guys, that's a lot of help.

SO, I should go with the basic frame design and leave out the Beavertail cut. But I should get the reverse plug option.

While that's good for a bull barrel, will it make a difference if I don't pick up a bull barrel?

Get the regular Plunger plunger tube slot, and should I have them put it on? Or is that pretty easy to do?

I'll leave out the ramped barrel cut.

BoMar rear sight and Novak front? Is that what everyone's thinking?

And get the slide hand fitted to the frame. They say that they fit it to 90% leaving the last 10% to me. What does that 10% entail? Is there a chance that I screw something up in that 10% of hand lapping?

And then what's the pros and cons to the internal vs external extractor?

Then should I have the front strap checkered or serrated?
Checkered 80.00
Serrated 35.00

I don't really care about the price, if the checkered is going to make a whole lot of difference. If not, then I'll just have it serrated.



So, just using Caspian as a reference, here's what I'm thinking now.


Basic Receiver, Stainless Government 185.00
Plunger Tube Slot 16.50
Stainless Plunger Tube 11.50
Stainless Grip Screw Bushings 7.50
Stainless Barstock Ejector 22.00
Small Part Installation 9.00
Hand Fit 50.00
Beavertail cut 16.50
Forged Government Slide, Stainless 235.00
Reverse Plug Cut 20.00
Bomar/Caspian Style 50.00
Novak Dovetail Front 22.00
Bevel Package, 22.00
Cocking Serrations 40.00

So, I'm still at about 710 dollars just looking at the Caspian catalog. I do realize that depending on what I was to do, the price might change. I just want to know what to expect when looking into this.

Do you guys see something that I'm missing? Should I get a mainspring housing at the same time, or does it matter? And should that be checkered or serrated as well?

Again, thanks guys for your help. I'm supprised that more people from the 1911 build thread isn't chiming in here.

 

[Hamar]

Hi C-pher, I have a couple questions for ya.

What is the small part installation for 9.00?

I would have the beavertail cut done

I would have the front strap checkered

I dont see you listing any of the trigger group:
Hammer
Sear
Disconnect
Hammer Strut
Or a pin set

Dont forget the thumb safety, slide stop and the mag release.

Which mainspring housing do you want?
Arched or straight? I like an arched housing, checkered.

I agree with:
the bomar sight suggestion
the Bull Barrel
cocking serrations

I'm sure Dan S will reply here. He knows his way around the 1911 blindfolded and upside down. BITD some of the northeasts top IPSC shooters were using guns that were created by mr Dan..........

 

[Nickle]

C-Pher, I would've commented earlier, but I'm a traditionalist. When you see my 1911A1, you'll understand that. Looks exactly like a USGI 1911A1NM.

I will recommend a Caspian rear sight as being good. That's what I put on mine when the Eliason broke.

 

[Dan S]

C-pher,
My biggest question is, what is the intended use of the pistol? If you are going to shoot matches, go with what you need for the intended matches. Rules vary between different sanctioning bodies. A bull barrel is not leagal in IDPA, but is in USPSA, limited or limited 10, but not the Singlestack division. Confusing isn't it? If you want to build an NRA Bullseye gun, especially for EIC matches, again the rules are different. If you want to go between IDPA and USPSA , skip the bull barrel. The extra weight of the bull barrel slows the unlocking time, and shoots a bit softer.
I would definately have the frontstrap checkered, not serrated. Checkered mainspring housing too. I like arched, some like flat. I would just go with the standard plunger tube, not slotted. If it's properly installed it will be fine. For adjustable sights, again, BoMar. They are the first, and the standard to be judged by.
I'm sure you're more confused than ever by now.
Dan

 

[C-pher]

Yea, my reason for building this one is to learn what's needed in building one.

It's going to be an educational journey. So, I don't have any real purpose for building one other than to say that I built it. And when I get the hang of this, I would like to build one for each of my kids with a custom serial number. But that's down the road.

So, if there's no reason to have a bull barrel, then I don't need the reverse plug cut. Or just do that in case I change my mind down the line.

Dan, are you saying to get the BoMar rear and front? I didn't see the option to have a front BoMar cut...

Nickle, you would do what? I'm sorry...

Hamar, I didn't talk about all that stuff because I was just worring about the slide and frame as of yet. I'll get to a parts kit and the like. And the only information I can find about the Mainspring housing online is the race ready housing. And I don't know if that's what I want, but I think that there's more in the catalog, and that's at home.

The small parts install consists of installing the Plunger Tube, Grip Screw Bushings, and the Ejector. That would save me sending it out to a gunsmith. And it's only 9 bucks, so why not just have them do it.

I still would like to know what's more reliable, internal or external extractor. And what's going to to entail finishing the last 10% lapping of the hand fiting of the slide to the frame?



Now I'm down to this...

Basic Receiver, Stainless Government 185.00
Stainless Plunger Tube 11.50
Stainless Grip Screw Bushings 7.50
Stainless Barstock Ejector 22.00
Small Part Installation 9.00
Hand Fit 50.00
Checkered Front Strap 80.00
Mainspring housing, Checkering 25.00
Forged Government Slide, Stainless 235.00
Bomar/Caspian Style 50.00
Novak Dovetail Front 22.00
Bevel Package, 22.00
Cocking Serrations 40.00

Now I'm to 760.00 for the frame and slide.


Again, I'll deal with a parts kit later.

And guys, thanks a lot. I'm really learning a lot from you guys. I really appreciate it.

 

[Hamar]

OK..This sounds like a pretty nice 1911 so far. Concerning the extractor, The internal style has been in service since, well, the start. Once in awhile they need a tweak but usually when they are set they are good to go. The external is something that I first saw on the S&W's and the Kimbers. I guess they work fine, I've been seeing them at the matches and they look like they work, I guess that will be personal preference.

 

[Dan S]

C-pher,
The Novak front dovetail is good. BoMar makes front sight that are real high, and fit the orginal Colt system of mounting. Go with a Novak cut, there are lot's of people making sights to fit that configuration. I prefer the internal extractor, but, I know how to tension them. It's not hard for a .45 anyway. For the last bit of lapping, that's easy too. Just remember to be patient. Use aluminum oxide lapping compound, available from Brownell's. Do you plan on fitting the barrel yourself? That's something that takes time to learn, as Hamar found out
Dan

 

[Hamar]

Right fitting the barrel correctly is super important. It also requires some specialized tooling. Yes, I found out that it isnt as easy as 1,2,3, when I got a bit aggresive cutting the lugs and went a bit too far.

 

[Nickle]

My faux pas, C-Pher. I fixed it to read "commented earlier". I'm a traditionalist when it comes to 1911's. Mine looks like a USGI NM rig, because the parts are mostly surplus, including the NM slide.

I looked at sights when I needed to replace the broken Eliason. I found a Caspian at a gun show that would actually cost me less than my cost on a Bo-Mar. So, I bought it. Looks like the Bo-Mar does, and works with the NM front sight.

 

[C-pher]

For the last bit of lapping, that's easy too. Just remember to be patient. Use aluminum oxide lapping compound, available from Brownell's. Do you plan on fitting the barrel yourself? That's something that takes time to learn, as Hamar found out
Dan

So wait? You don't just go and buy a barrel and drop it in? I figured that you can just pick up a barrel and it's good to go. See, learn something new.

Nickle, when we do the build party, this is something that we can do?

And the lapping, I'm guessing that all I have to do is slap it on the rails, put on the slide and then move it back and forth until when? It's moving nice and smooth? How do I make sure that one side isn't uneven?

 

[Hamar]

Well, I'll tell you this. I'm not a gunsmith but, I am a R&D machinist and have been for 26 years. I built my Para .40 just to see what all the fuss was about and what it took to do it. Gunsmiths who will custom build any 1911 and it works right and looks great deserve and earn every cent they might charge. Would I build another any time soon? Naa..I'll send the parts to EGW or Matt McLearn or even Dan Bedel and have them do it for me.

Nope, you cant just drop the barrel in and have it lock up right. That takes fitting of the bottom lugs and the locking lugs up top. I've seen "drop in" barrels advertised but I didnt use one on my build so I dont know how Drop in they are.

Your slide will probably, maybe just start to slide onto the frame. Aluminum Oxide paste, a cowhide mallet and time will get that lapped in, I'd leave it a bit tight and then let it shoot itself in.

 

[GTOShootr]

My front sight dovetails are 65° x .330" x .075”. Is that Novak? Whatever it is, I've found a lot of options available for that cut.

Did you guys fit your barrels with a fixture on a mill? I figured that if I decided to try my hand at building a 1911 I'd get a fixture since I have a mill. For now, I'm happy watching Dave do the work with his mill and surface grinder.

 

[Nickle]

So wait? You don't just go and buy a barrel and drop it in? I figured that you can just pick up a barrel and it's good to go. See, learn something new.

Nickle, when we do the build party, this is something that we can do?

And the lapping, I'm guessing that all I have to do is slap it on the rails, put on the slide and then move it back and forth until when? It's moving nice and smooth? How do I make sure that one side isn't uneven?

You CAN get a drop in, and USGI MILSPEC will be a drop in (usually). Match barrels are the ones that have to be fitted.

Folks, I do believe that C-Pher is building a rack grade gun, or close to it, not a match gun.

 

[Dan S]

Steve,
That's the Novak dovetail. I fit the barrel using a milling machine for some of it, and do the rest by hand. A lot of gunsmithing is done by feel, rather than numbers.

 

[GTOShootr]

I hear you and don't mean to argue. However, for $700+ parts, you might as well go the extra mile for a good fitting barrel. Also, he said he wanted it to be educational. So leaving a lesson in barrel fit, lock-up, etc out wouldn't be getting all you could out of the experience. I think that is where Dan, Hamar, and my own recommendations are coming from.

 

[Hamar]

Nickle, I understand. But if C-pher is going to spend the money and time to build his own 1911, wouldnt he want it to shoot the best it could? Hell, he'll be up around $800-900 in parts alone. For what, $600 he could go out and buy an Auto Ordnance 1911 and spend the rest of the money buying ammo. I'm not trying to be combative here, just giving my .02 and my experience's in doing the same thing (building my own 1911)

Its all good though. If I can help out in anyway, Feel free to ask.

 

[C-pher]

I hear you and don't mean to argue. However, for $700+ parts, you might as well go the extra mile for a good fitting barrel. Also, he said he wanted it to be educational. So leaving a lesson in barrel fit, lock-up, etc out wouldn't be getting all you could out of the experience. I think that is where Dan, Hamar, and my own recommendations are coming from.

I know, and that's what's killing me. Well not killing me. But not what i expected. I mean, I can pick up a 1911 for 500 bucks...

But if I'm going to do this for this money, I might as well do it. I'm just getting a little jeeved out by having to fit a barrel. LOL!

Can I get a drop in barrel and get one to be fitted and work on that later when I have someone that can help me?

What turned out thinking that I could get something like a Testers model, where I just buy a bunch of parts and put it together, is getting quite a bit more involved. [shock] When I first thought about it I thought that it woud be a lot easier than this. But I really don't mind.

But I love it.

So, where do I go to get a barrel fitted?? It's sounding like I'm not going to have the equipment to do it?? And how much does that cost?

The thing I'm thinking is this...this is going to cost me well over 800 or 900 bucks to build. I might as well have fun doing it.

So, let's keep talking.

 

[Nickle]

$600+?

Jeezum Crow, I've got about $200 into mine, and that's because I coughed up for a new barrel and new Caspian rear sight. Of course, the frame and slide were free (courtesy of my father).

To follow the logic here, I'd go shopping for an AK ($300-$400) and end up with a Russian SVD ($6000+), and not a Tiger ($2000) at that. 8)

 

[Hamar]

As for fitting a barrel, You should be able to find a competent gunsmith down your way that could do that job for you. Dave Santurri is in Rhode Island I think and has been building custom 1911 for quite awhile. I do not know what the fee would be to do a barrel fitting though. The smith will have to fine tune the lock up lugs, fit the barrel hood to the slide and fit the lower lugs to the frame and slide stop. There is quite a bit of work in those steps.

As for drop in barrels, I'm sure you could go with one of those and you'd just really only have to fit the bushing to the barrel. Your lock up might not be as tight and maybe some accuracy will suffer but you could get away with it.

Building a 1911 isnt going to be cheap or easy but you can do it and it will shoot.

 

[Hamar]

Nickle, you were fortunate to score the frame and slide free. Down here in Mass. 1911 stuff is crazy expensive due to the stupid regulations we ahave to abide by. C-pher has to lay out some big cash for the stainless frame and stainless slide just to get going. Most of his expense is in those two parts.

 

[Nickle]

The frame and slide are usually the 2 most expensive parts, unless you buy a fancy barrel.

 

[Hamar]

Thats right, and C-pher is looking at $420 for those two pieces before any of the options he was wanting get added into them.

 

[GTOShootr]

Have you gotten the AGI 1911 build videos? Most of your questions are answered in there and the tasks are demonstrated.

 

[Nickle]

Thats right, and C-pher is looking at $420 for those two pieces before any of the options he was wanting get added into them.

It can be done for considerably less than that. It does require a little looking, though. Try about $125 for a frame, and from $50 and up for a slide.

 

[Hamar]

I was taking those numbers right out of C-phers own post. He was using the Caspian catalog as a reference. Those werent my numbers.

 

[Dan S]

$50.00 for an old Argentine slide? Something that was made back in the 30's or 40's is bound to be soft metal. And $125.00 for a frame, an Essex? Neither one are in the same league as the Caspian parts. If you're going to do a build like this, do a good job with good parts. This is like building a streed rod out of a Yugo.
C-pher, there is some bias from Hamar, GTO and myself. We all shoot competively and tend to relate building firearms from that stand point. If you only want to build a rattle trap .45 let us know, and our posts will cease.
Dan