Oh, but some units spread that pain. Everybody hauls mortar and MG ammo in the airborne.
Yeah, me too. That's kind of why I think of it as optimal. Might not be the best word, though.
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M-16 Era Ends: Army's 101st Airborne Division Receives Next-Gen Assault Rifles
- Thread starter Reptile
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Oh, but some units spread that pain. Everybody hauls mortar and MG ammo in the airborne.
Yeah, me too. That's kind of why I think of it as optimal. Might not be the best word, though.
Varmint
NES Member
Watched this video about early troop feedback for the XM7.
View: https://youtu.be/HljpWBkQbgU?si=SUT7Sfdrkng7vn0j
Makes me wonder why not have the machine gunners and a couple DMRs in 6.8 and the rest of the squad using M4s? Do you really want your entire squads going house to house with 12 lb very long rifles?
View: https://youtu.be/HljpWBkQbgU?si=SUT7Sfdrkng7vn0j
Makes me wonder why not have the machine gunners and a couple DMRs in 6.8 and the rest of the squad using M4s? Do you really want your entire squads going house to house with 12 lb very long rifles?
Tartakovsky
NES Member
The round might be equivalent weight, but it’s larger in a 20 rd magazine. I’d hate to be in a fire fight and run out of ammo. 20rd magazines are lame. Combat load will be 140 rds. Soldiers are cutting their ammunition supply by a third.SIG Sauer developed an innovative thinner, lighter hybrid brass/alloy cartridge to pair with 6.8-millimeter projectiles, reducing overall weight by 30 percent. The new combination yields rounds that weigh about the same as the 5.56mm ammunition the M4/M249 fire. But it packs a much heavier punch, able to lethally pierce body armor close-in and at longer ranges.
Read the article.
277 SIG Fury: SIG Sauer Unveils New Caliber With Hybrid Case Design
Earlier this week, SIG Sauer unveiled the Cross. The Cross is first-ever bolt-action rifle built by SIG from the groundwww.athlonoutdoors.com
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Note that the rifle itself is 8lbs, not 12.
Kitted out, it’s as heavy and long as the Marine Corps’ M27 with issued silencer and optic. Not a big problem, unless you’re an enabler or have an another role with other equipment like an RTO, grenadier, or mine sweeper.
Varmint
NES Member
The video mentions soldiers enjoy blowing up concrete, and the optic automatically adjusts for distance read by laser. So maybe fewer rounds are needed?
I got to fondle one up at sig a couple summers ago at an open house event. It didn't feel like a 12 pound rifle at all. I just checked the specs and its 8.38 unloaded and just under 10 with the suppressor.
I was married to an m16 for 2 years of my life and did 23 years.....and the new platform did not feal a great deal heavier than an m16.....yes it has more weight.....but the carteridge has more power.....the biggest difference i noticed was that it felt "wider".
I found the xm250 to be a far better design than the m249......the xm250 does not load by using a feed tray cover! The belts have a plastic tab that slides in from left to right....there is a spring loaded clip that holds it in place.....cycle the charging handle and good to go. Way better than popping a feed tray cover and sweep with youe finger for links before inserting a new belt and closing the cover.
Now.....if you have to load a belt that has already been "used" and the plastic tab is gone you do have to open the top to load but it's not a feed tray cover per say......the top rotates clockwise only exposing what is needed to load the belt rather than exposing the whole mechanism to dirt and debris from battle. It's a huge improvement.
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Varmint
NES Member
It's 12 lbs with the optic which is variable up to 8X and has a built in laser range finder that adjusts the reticle, or something.
The video said the high powered variant of the 6.8 rounds are $15/round. Wow, but I'm sure it'll come down if adopted.
Love how they think it may penetrate Russian APC armor.
Dench
NES Member
As with most/all things army procurement, and as mentioned at the end of the video - you really can't trust what they are saying publicly.
The army isnt going to say anything negative about these controversial projects. It's all flowers and rainbows.
Why? Who cares? One thing that has become painfully clear post WWII is that catch all weapons typically completly suck ass. Has anyone ever asked for an infantry rifle to be able to penetrate a 50 year old Soviet hunk of shit? No. The name of the game in infantry rifles is keep the f***ing things as light as possible, as high cap as possible and have it have the correct power to stop X at Y distance. Presumably X being Chinese/Russian body armor and Y being 300m and under.
Just the high pressure, hybrid ones can be much cheaper. That $15 load is the AP one with tungsten. I doubt there will be many of those made. Just like our current M995 AP rounds are rare.
I’m guessing they’ll end up making a full power load with a bullet design similar to the M855A1 and M80A1 with the steel penetrator in the tip. That would be devastating.
Parker Schreiber
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Source: https://www.asafm.army.mil/Portals/...rocurement/Procurement of Ammunition Army.pdf
The "Special Purpose" armor piercing tungsten (and possibly DU?) rounds run $15 each. General purpose combat rounds are $2.73 each and training rounds only slightly less.
Dench
NES Member
Just wait and see how much of a trainwreck that works out to be. The army does not like providing ammo for training. I have never, not once in 6 years in the guard had a day at the range where i was given enough ammo or time to make new progress.
All thats going to happen now is less trigger time for people who desperately need it
Varmint
NES Member
Low volume.
Varmint
NES Member
Dench
NES Member
Nothing I am saying is controversial or in debate. Infantry rifles need to be light. This things not light. They need high capacity. This is less than the system its replacing.Yeah the Army should contract NES cause we know better.
They are off on some adventure at this point. They want a new infantry rifle that is powerful for reasons. Ok? Then they are sourcing a replacement for the M240 (for reasons). They found a fantastic round in 338 norma mag. That round is no joke. So now we also have a medium machine gun that's a defacto 50 cal on the field.
So how much firepower do we need? The more you add the less maneuverable it gets. Most of our doctrine is based on being fast and mobile. None of this makes a lot of sense.
Parker Schreiber
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The non-cynical answer:
The rounds are a newly designed 3-part hybrid using a steel case head, brass body, and an aluminum locking washer. That allows a chamber pressure of 80,000 psi, compared to the 55,000 to 61,000 for military .223 rounds. That requires new tooling and a new production processes, both of which have to be amortized over the first few years of production. Nor is there a significant consumer market for the military grade round. Yet.
The cynical answer:
Like so many "peace time" weapons programs, the NGSW program was designed to benefit the careers of military officers and the earnings of military contractors rather than to wage war more effectively. A secondary goal was to win the previous war, in this case Afghanistan. The entire selection process took almost 5 years, and was set up from the beginning to reject any "not invented here" options and select a "Cadillac" weapon with fractionally better performance "on paper" at a significantly higher cost. It also gave the winning bidder monopoly power and the price per round reflects that.
IMO, there's truth in both answers.
The army hasn't put enough stress on actual marksmanship in a long time.
I shoot WAY more ammo on my own since I retired than I ever did in the army.
As far as "making progress" in the army I am one of those thay has been blessed with the ability to shoot well from day one. Hand me a rifle or pistol and I'll hit the bull.....I've always been that way.
On active we’d always have ammo left over to burn down at the end of the day. Wish we had more range days, particularly with moving targets, but we did have quals, CQM, live fire shoot houses, live fire squad lanes, etc. All with more ammo than we needed.
And yet we’ve had guys using SCAR-Hs, M110A1s, and Mk48s, M240Bs, all with 7.62x51. Lots of dudes are carrying 7.62 ammo around. The hybrid case makes 6.8 slightly lighter than 7.62.
As for M14 comparison, that’s not really apt.
XM7: 8.38 lbs
M14: 9.2 lbs
XM7: 35”
M14: 44.3”
The XM7 is nearly a pound lighter and much more maneuverable.
This.
Every range day included a "mad minute" at the end. This was Division just before the GWOT.
We often had mad minutes when I was in the Guard, too, but it was a small detachment in a Western state with a healthy budget. We did plenty of shooting, though obviously not as much as I did on AD.
I will say, since they could start from scratch, it would have been great to use a 6 GT size case as a medium size between AR15 and AR10 magwells. Neck it up o 6.8 if they wanted and adjust the taper angle if necessary for reliable feeding.
Varmint
NES Member
3000 ft/s from a 13” barrel is impressive.
And with any luck maybe we’re done with Middle East adventures and house to house combat against unarmored insurgents. They have to prepare for wars with China or Russia, although less so with Kamala out.
![[rofl]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/013.gif "ROFL [rofl]")
Varmint
NES Member
Is he stuck in that tree?
