Love Machine
NES Member
They got it, it worked great, then someone remembered that it violates the Geneva convention on exploding ordnance. ::sad trombone noises::
-
If you enjoy the forum please consider supporting it by signing up for a NES Membership The benefits pay for the membership many times over.
M-16 Era Ends: Army's 101st Airborne Division Receives Next-Gen Assault Rifles
- Thread starter Reptile
- Start date
Parker Schreiber
NES Member
- Joined
- Sep 29, 2020
- Messages
- 2,239
- Likes
- 3,222
They got the XM25 and, as the Wikipedia article mentions, it was determined to be heavy, expensive ($90K+), and unreliable. Whether the reliability could have been fixed I can't say.
I know of no provision of any of the Geneva Conventions or additional protocols which outlaw exploding ordinance. The Hague convention of 1899 outlaw the use of expanding projectiles. The United States is not a signatory, and has concluded that their military use of hollow point bullets does not violate international law. The M203 and M320 grenade launchers are still in use despite the Hague Protocols.
Nor has the military given up on the idea. There is currently a competition for a "Precision Grenadier System," with a winner to be chosen Real Soon Now.
Love Machine
NES Member
Geneva convention has the exploding “dum-dum” bullets provision, which the programmable 25mm round violates.
Parker Schreiber
NES Member
- Joined
- Sep 29, 2020
- Messages
- 2,239
- Likes
- 3,222
Dum-dum bullets didn't explode, and again, that's from the 1899 Hague convention. Look for yourself; you'll find no such provision in any of the Geneva accords. The Red Cross states the rule as "Rule 77. The use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body is prohibited." A grenade is not a bullet and does not expand in the human body.
Cap'n Mike
NES Member
Those 7.62 Rifles are not issued to everyone.
The M250 may be an improvement over the M249 in reliability, but though the base form is a couple of pounds lighter, it will be a couple of pounds heavier when loaded with ammo.
This new ammo is almost twice as heavy as 5.56.
Making every other Rifle load in the squad heavier, while carrying 70 less rounds, is extremely stupid on paper, I can only imagine how stupid it will be combat.
Dench
NES Member
Theres no demand for it. It's use cases are niche.They got it, it worked great, then someone remembered that it violates the Geneva convention on exploding ordnance. ::sad trombone noises::
XM25 CDTE - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
I'd rather have someone with a Carl Gustaf to sling shit at bad guys than some bozo small 40mm cartridge that has limited use in comparison.
They got it, it worked great, then someone remembered that it violates the Geneva convention on exploding ordnance. ::sad trombone noises::
XM25 CDTE - Wikipedia
It doesn’t violate anything in either the Geneva convention or Hague Conventions.
@Dench provided the reasoning why it’s no more.
Also, it just didn’t have much lethality. It’s a very small size to expect much lethality in an air burst role. Too little explosives and material for fragmentation. Sure, it has a longer range than the M320, but it’s just not effective for its airburst intent and for non-airburst uses, normal machine gun fire is more effective and has a longer range.
When it comes to needing to carry the most amount of ammunition, the important factor is the ammo for the automatic weapon systems. And as I mentioned, the Mk48 and M240B are already in common use and shoot 7.62.
The situations where soldiers expended all their M4 ammo in Afghanistan, did so when they were outmatched in range and soldiers were in effectively shooting 5.56. 20 rounds vs 30 in a magazine isn’t the end of the world. MACVSOG made great use of 20 rounders during ambushes. And when you can much more accurately send rounds out to mid-range, you don’t need as many. Especially with augmented reality in an optic so soldiers can more accurately point out enemy positions to other soldiers.
I agree that I don’t think the XM7 should be for all members of a platoon. PLs, PSGs, Squad leaders, medics, RTOs, grenadiers, and attached enablers should all carry M4s. I also hope that infantry units can keep their full complement of M4s in their MTOE and are allowed to use what makes sense for the mission. But I do also wholeheartedly disagree with trying to compare the XM7 to the M14 disaster. The M14 was a heavier weapon, it was much longer and unwieldy in dense jungle, it did not have the sighting system to take advantage of any external ballistics benefits of the 7.62, and it was terribly uncontrollable on full auto. The issues with the M14 weren’t due to the combat load quantity. They were due to the weapon being completely inappropriate.
Cap'n Mike
NES Member
I don’t think the M250 is replacing the M240, it’s replacing the M249, though I could be wrong.
200 rounds of 5.56 in the SAWs nutsack is being replaced by 100 rounds in the M250 because the ammo is so heavy.
The MACVSOG guys were using 20 rounders because they couldn’t get 30 rounders.
Major Plaster details how some of the recon guys mail ordered 30 rounders from the US because they couldn’t get them through the supply system but needed them badly.
According to Tilt Meyer:
“I carried thirty-four 20-round magazines for the CAR-15 – we only placed 18 rounds in each magazine, which gave me 612 rounds for that weapon”
I don’t think 612 rounds of Sig Fury would be doable.
Many SOG guys didn’t carry a backup pistol, so they could hump a couple of more magazines. Weight of ammo matters a lot.
Last edited:
AllaSnackbah
NES Member
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2009
- Messages
- 9,002
- Likes
- 13,327
Sig is f***ing gay and terrible.
I don’t think the M250 is replacing the M240, it’s replacing the M249, though I could be wrong.
200 rounds of 5.56 in the SAWs nutsack is being replaced by 100 rounds in the M250 because the ammo is so heavy.
The MACVSOG guys were using 20 rounders because they couldn’t get 30 rounders.
Major Plaster details how some of the recon guys mail ordered 30 rounders from the US because they couldn’t get them through the supply system but needed them badly.
According to Tilt Meyer:
“I carried thirty-four 20-round magazines for the CAR-15 – we only placed 18 rounds in each magazine, which gave me 612 rounds for that weapon”
I don’t think 612 rounds of Sig Fury would be doable.
Many SOG guys didn’t carry a backup pistol, so they could hump a couple of more magazines. Weight of ammo matters a lot.
Yes, the M250 isn’t slated to replace the M240B… at this time. The point is people will carry heavier cartridges when there is a performance/lethality benefit. Same with the Mk48. The Mk48 was a welcome alternative to the M249, despite heavier ammo.
Weight and ammo count matter, yeah, I know. I’ve carried tons of 5.56 and 7.62 on patrols. But sometimes, a little extra weight is worth the benefits of the heavier thing. If there is a lighter, and equally durable option that still meets requirements, great. The M240L is an example. But if you need a certain capability, sometimes extra weight is coming along. And at the end of the day, the extra weight of the 6.8 ammo isn’t a huge deal. Soldiers carry heavy shit, @Picton “Breaking News”.
As for MACVSOG, yeah 30 rounders are nice if you have them, but they’re not the end all be all. 20 rounders work perfectly fine. I’ve never once burned through multiple magazines so fast that the additional mag changes would have mattered. The point for why I mentioned MACVSOG is that they effectively used 20 rounders in intense firefights.
The reason they carried so much ammo was because of their unique mission for special reconnaissance. That is a unique mission set and anybody doing that now would be able to choose from a plethora of options in their arms room to suit that specific mission with its unique challenges. If you’re planning to be out at a patrol base/hide site for weeks on end with zero chance of resupply, yeah maybe 6.8x51 isn’t what you want.
Edit: typos
Last edited:
This.
MACV and units like them didn't overload themselves with ammo because they expected to engage in a 600-round firefight. They overloaded themselves because they expected to engage in six 100-round firefights, with no chance of resupply.
You carry what you think you'll need, no matter how much it weighs. Then you add 10% on top of that. It's why we used to jump with rucks in excess of 100 lbs.
Varmint
NES Member
It’s well suited to fighting Taliban hiding behind rocks and blind firing their AKs (and now M4s). Range for the rock, aim a little higher and poof. The Army claims it was used very successfully for this in Afghanistan.
Dench
NES Member
It was removed from trial because one of them exploded on a soldier firing it.
It also did have bad field reports due to it's size and weight, it essentially removes a rifleman from the platoon.
It's a solution looking for a problem.
Dench
NES Member
Speaking of grenade launchers
www.twz.com
One Of These Futuristic Grenade Launchers Could Succeed Where The Army's 'Punisher' Failed
Two front-runners have emerged in the Army's quest for a new Precision Grenadier System able to engage personnel, light vehicles, and even drones.
www.twz.com
Has anybody mentioned that it's in Sig's contract that they will be the sole provider of ammo for the new rifle? That's where the money is: the Mt Co. here in Maine has a yearly draw of 50,000 rds of rifle ammo. ONE COMPANY! And a NG Co. at that.
They did the same thing with 9mm: they sold the M17 to the govt. for $150 per pistol, which is probably the cost of materials. The money is in the ammo.
They did the same thing with 9mm: they sold the M17 to the govt. for $150 per pistol, which is probably the cost of materials. The money is in the ammo.
Rat187
NES Member
Not true SF/SOG units in contact could usually count on gunship support, ammo resupply, and Dustoff. All bets were off in 300' of triple canopy jungle, you couldn't do a thing to help...it sucked
Funny story (kinda).
Sig did a presentation today in Augusta for all the leadership in the Maine Army Guard. After the presentation of the new rifle, an AGR E-8, who shall remain nameless, picked up the rifle to look through the new optic. He said "where is the reticle?" Sig guy: "It's green. Right there in the center. Sometimes it's hard to see. Point it at the white wall". E-8: "Ummm, Dude, I'm looking through clear glass". Sig guy: "let me see that for a minute Sgt. Oh, I see the issue. The batteries are dead".
E-8 when asked later by his CO what he thought of the new rifle: "sir, it looks like a nice souvenir as a battlefield pickup for some Russian or Chinese soldier" CO: "What?! What do you mean by that?" E-8: "sir, the rifle doesn't shoot itself. We have no advanced marksmanship training other than AT."
Sig did a presentation today in Augusta for all the leadership in the Maine Army Guard. After the presentation of the new rifle, an AGR E-8, who shall remain nameless, picked up the rifle to look through the new optic. He said "where is the reticle?" Sig guy: "It's green. Right there in the center. Sometimes it's hard to see. Point it at the white wall". E-8: "Ummm, Dude, I'm looking through clear glass". Sig guy: "let me see that for a minute Sgt. Oh, I see the issue. The batteries are dead".
E-8 when asked later by his CO what he thought of the new rifle: "sir, it looks like a nice souvenir as a battlefield pickup for some Russian or Chinese soldier" CO: "What?! What do you mean by that?" E-8: "sir, the rifle doesn't shoot itself. We have no advanced marksmanship training other than AT."
The reticle is there whether it has batteries or not. The additional drop data and various augmented reality information that can be shared won’t show up. But the reticle itself is still there so it can be used like any other LPVO without a battery. So not sure what he was talking about.
Edit: and the color of the range/ballistic solution data is not limited to hard-to-see green.
Last edited:
Looking through it will always have the etched reticle. Rangefinding is just done with a button on the attached LRF.
Perhaps he meant that he couldn’t see the additional digital overlay.
Last edited:
Varmint
NES Member
The sergeant should have done a drop test on it.
